The Four Rules to Break for Financial Freedom - with Brandon Clark, CPA

In this episode of the Two Piers Podcast, host Erica D'Eramo is joined by Brandon Clark, a seasoned financial planner and former public accountant, to explore the intricate relationship between financial planning and mindset. With a background that spans roles at both a Big Four firm and small businesses, Brandon shares his journey from the world of accounting to finding his true passion in financial planning. Throughout the conversation, Brandon and Erica dive deep into the psychology of money, discussing how beliefs, trauma, and cultural narratives shape financial decisions. They also highlight the importance of financial coaching, particularly for marginalized communities, and offer practical advice on overcoming limiting beliefs around money and work. Whether you're seeking to achieve financial freedom or simply want to better understand your money mindset, this episode offers valuable insights and actionable tips.

To find out more about Brandon's leadership and mindset coaching practice, check out Reexamine Wealth. You can find information about his Financial Advisory services at Toler Financial Group. 


During this episode, Brandon provides several prompts for you to reflect on as you grow your understanding of your own relationship with money. We're including those here for easy reference:

Prompts:

1. What mistakes have you made with money? What mistakes did your caregivers make with money? What warnings do you remember your caregivers saying about money? 
2. What were the conversations or memories from your childhood around work?
3. What’s your first memory of money? What’s your most vivid memory of something that money buys?
4. What would you do with the proceeds if you won the lottery?

He also mentions a resource called Money Scripts. You can find more information on their website. 

Lastly, we want to be sure to include the proper disclosures for this episode:

• Toler Financial Group and Cambridge Investment Research do not provide tax or legal advice.
• Any discussion of markets and economic factors are general information only, and no claim is made regarding future performance or trends.
• Securities offered through Registered Representatives of Cambridge Investment Research, Inc., a broker-dealer, Member FINRA/SIPC.  Advisory Services offered through Cambridge Investment Research Advisors, Inc., a Registered Investment Advisor. Toler Financial Group and Cambridge are not affiliated.

Transcript

Erica D'Eramo: 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we have Brandon Clark joining us. Brandon is a CPA, a financial planner and a coach who partners with high achieving professionals to gain control over their most precious resources, their mindset, time and money, all in service of creating a life of their own design. As a coach, he helps clients find or re engage with their calling and complete their life's most important work. He's also a financial planner who helps his clients build and execute the financial strategies to underwrite their dreams. He loves working with clients on both mindset and the more tactical details of their financial plan. He currently works in his own leadership and mindset coaching practice called re examine wealth and as a financial advisor at Toler Financial Group. Brandon. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm really excited to have you on the podcast.

Brandon Clark: 1:06

Thank you, Erica, it's a really, real, really a pleasure to get to be here with you as well. Thanks for having me on. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo: 1:14

So tell us a little bit about your origin story, kind of how you came to doing this work.

Brandon Clark: 1:21

Sure I'm like, it's to think, like, how far back do I want to go? Well,

Erica D'Eramo: 1:28

I'll try to No,

Brandon Clark: 1:32

not that far. Let's see. So I began my financial career in public accounting. You know when I working there, it was just one of those things where it was a great, it was a great experience. I learned a lot there, you know, I got to work for a big four accounting firm, you know, really, you know, develop some really, develop good, solid financial background and skills. But I realized while I was there that this wasn't the career for me. So I started to try to figure out what was more, you know, more what I was looking for. So I suppose, I guess, in moving around a bit, I worked, you know, did some government accounting for a while. I worked in some small business accounting that was also very interesting, but still not quite there. And then started to realize that financial planning might be something that I was interested in. So I was going to say, you know, had a great I had a great accounting career, I ended up actually having the opportunity to own my own accounting firm towards the end of it, and I think that was sort of the final stake, or final straw that just made me say, You know what? I've tried everything within here, but it's still not quite for me. But one of the things along the way that I picked up was I had the opportunity to work with coaches. And that made, you know, developing a small accounting, developing a small team for my accounting firm, you know a lot better and and then final, in my final year of that business, as I was trying to figure out what was the next thing for me, I worked with a coach who, you know, her specialty was actually money mindset, which is, you know, I had no idea at that time that this would be something that I that really resonated with me. But, you know, just through the work with her, I started to do a lot of my own kind of personal development, you know, started to sort of address many, like, my whole life's work, my whole life's worth of, like, beliefs and, you know, stuff with money, stuff with work, all of that. And so it's just this path where, you know, just going down the path of work. You know, ultimately, it brought me to this place where I am now, where I've got, you know, two professions that you know very much fulfill me, and are the ways that I like to work with people and, you know, kind of make my own impact in the world,

Erica D'Eramo: 4:16

yeah. And I think it's interesting too, because I share that in some ways, right, as a coach and also a consultant, and sometimes I have to say, like, Okay, I'm taking my coach hat off now I'm putting my consultant hat on, or vice versa. So can you share a little bit about sort of the differences between a financial planner role, when you're in that role, you know, how that, what that looks like, versus when you're wearing your coaching hat, so to speak. Because I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand what coaching is or the difference, although we do talk about it a lot on this podcast. But you know how the subtle, subtle, or really, not so subtle, differences there that you that you see,

Brandon Clark: 4:58

sure, um, let's. See, I'll start with financial planning, financial advising. You know, when I'm in that role, I'm much more directive, you know, it's like you are coming to me and you are asking me for advice, and I'm going to tell you my opinion of what I think is the thing that you need to do with your money, you know, and what's going to and I guess I would say the one way where, even in the financial advisor, financial planner, when I'm wearing that hat, but I think I operate just a little bit differently. And this is probably somewhat the influence of coaching, but also my own, sort of, just my own orientation towards it is helping clients, like, look at what they're optimizing for. Like, I think the default of most financial planners is money. You know, optimizing for money. But this other orientation, where we're optimizing for quality of life is very much how I've kind of framed my practice, and so I have to tell that to clients a lot of time. So which answer do you want? You know? Because we I can tell you how to I can tell you how to optimize your money. It may not be the path that's the most fun, or, you know, that's gonna there may be speeds, there's definitely there. There could be some hassle around there that as well. And so I just want to make sure that, like, people know what they're picking, so to speak. So at any rate, that's, you know, that's the that's the answer to your question. And then, you know, in contrast to coaching, is much more I'm really in tune to the client and trying to reflect back to them what I hear and help them to make a decision that's most aligned with, you know, wherever it is they're trying to go. So I would say, I think I've used the coaching hat a decent bit in my financial planning as well. But you know, they're definitely two things, and they're definitely distinct. But I you know, the not giving advice part, I think, is probably the central piece. You know, when I'm when I'm purely wearing the coaching hat. And so I definitely, you know, separate the two as well.

Erica D'Eramo: 7:12

Yeah, I think that sounds similar to the world of coaching and consulting, where, yes, when I am wearing my consulting hat, I am being paid to lend my acumen, my expertise, and tell people my opinion on what I think will give them the best outcome that they are looking for. Now, I will sometimes dip into my coaching skills to figure out what is that outcome that they are looking for, rather than assuming or ruling, what I think that outcome should be. And I think when it comes to finances and financial planning, having that skill set is so important in, you know, and in someone you're getting support from, because especially, especially for for people who have traditionally not been supported, not been seen, as, you know, the prime money earners of society, there can be a lot of unease and a lot of fear of judgment and a lot of shame and a lot of narratives there. And they and when we go to a financial advisor and they're like, well, you're just being silly with your money. And it's like, well, but I'm, I'm maximizing for the outcome I want. You're just, you just have a different outcome you want. And so I think a lot of it stops a lot of people from seeking support because they're worried about that judgment. Because, you know, like, I call the cash flow bros, they might not have the same, the same goals that I have, yeah,

Brandon Clark: 8:43

yeah. That's I, you know, that is, that's why I definitely brought up that piece about, like, what are we optimizing for? And so, you know, I think that there's even, like, a level of listening that I think I do, just from having the coaching skill set that other financial planners may not because they're so dead set on that, like, optimizing for, you know, return money, but like, as you know, and like, don't get me wrong. Like, yes, I want, like, yes, performance is important. Yes, you know, like, investments are important. Tax like, tax optimization, all of these details are important. But, you know, there's a cost, ultimately, to, you know, a lot of things in life. And really it's, you know, my, my realization is that the money is really in service of life. You know, I guess you kind of read my bio a bit, and I even say it there. So,

Erica D'Eramo: 9:42

so we mentioned financial freedom, I think, in in talking about this episode, and I, I would love to have you know in your words, what you consider financial freedom, like what? And we've maybe touched on that a little bit so far, or I'm starting, starting to. Or that topic. But tell me what you conceptualize as financial freedom. Yeah, so

Brandon Clark: 10:07

financial freedom is, is definitely it's like one of my favorite topics, you know, to talk about, both in my own life and with my clients. You know, my definition of financial freedom. There's kind of two different aspects to financial freedom. There's the money part, which, you know, it's the the like the dollars and cents, it's the budgets and spreadsheets. And you know, how much are you spending? How much versus how much of you're earning, versus how much, you know, sort of investment income do you have? But there's also a mindset piece to it as well. And so there's this kind of, you know, I think one thing that a lot of people think about when, like, I don't know, the most common thing you hear is like, everyone wants to be rich, right? Like everyone wants to have enough money, and it's like, Why? Why do they want this? It's so because they want to be able to do what they want to do. But the thing I've noticed just in working with people for so long on money related issues is just that, like, it's actually surprising that, you know, I meet people who, like, they're not my wealthiest clients, but they just have it in them that they feel free like they've got they've got modest they've got a modest house, they've had modest jobs, they've saved and they have things that they're passionate about, and they are, you know, they're able to create freedom while there's other clients who've got, Like, you know, 10s of millions of dollars, but they don't have that same level of happiness. So at any rate, there's sort of these, like, I guess I look at it as sort of like the financials of it. But then there's also a mindset piece. And a lot of what I like to like, one of my favorite areas is to explore this mindset area of finance. And like, what are the things that keep you? I mean, I think every coach likes this, right? Like, what are the things that keep you, you know, from feeling empowered, from accomplishing the goals that you have set out? And so I just look at it a little bit more from the financial lens, too. And one of the final things I'll kind of mention is I'm a part of this. I don't know if you've ever heard of financial independence. Retire

Erica D'Eramo: 12:27

early or fire. I've not, but

Brandon Clark: 12:32

there's this whole kind of sub, sort of subset of the financial media. And you know, it's people in that kind of, like, 20s, 30s, 40s. Is the age group of most people who are kind of subscribed to this. But there's just the idea that you can, you know, save up a ton of money and basically save, kind of like 50% of your income. And you know, usually over the course of 510, 15 years, you should be able to get to a point where you are financially free. But one of the things that happens with people is that they continue to sort of like even after they get to the place where they said, you know, all right, well, 1.5 million, 2 million, I'll be able to get there. They're not able to pull that trigger, and it's because of the mindset piece. So, yeah, just some of my interests in the subject,

Erica D'Eramo: 13:21

yeah. I mean, I'm sure that there is so much in there, around fear, around you know how the beliefs that we inherit growing up, whether we grew up in wealthy families that taught us that, like money was everything, or we grew up in financially unstable families where we believed then if we just had money, everything would be okay. And so I I'm sure it must be, there must be all sorts of beliefs under there that that lead to that. And it's interesting hearing you talk about what you know, what's your number, essentially, that will give you the freedom and how it shifts over time. I think I mentioned to you at some point when we were talking about watching this Paris Hilton documentary recently, and I do, for anyone listening it, this documentary really did stay with me. I don't watch a lot of TV. I don't watch a lot of, like, movies or whatever. This really did stick with me. And there's a point where she's talking about, like, Okay, I just need a billion dollars. And then, you know, like, her sister is asking her, like, when will it be enough? You're running yourself into the ground work is everything. You're making yourself sick, like you're a workaholic. When will you take a break? Like, when can you take a vacation? And she's essentially saying, like, I can't take a vacation until I have a billion dollars. And and it sounds so wild in, you know, in our context, but a lot of that came from her past trauma and all this other stuff that's like, all wrapped up in her needing safety and seeing a billion dollars as giving her safety. Okay. Which is, it's all relative, I guess, but, but that really stuck with me. And I think, like the arc of that documentary shows her kind of recognizing some of these things and then coming to terms with some of it. And I think now, from what I can see, things have shifted for her in terms of that mindset, but we probably aren't going to see that much about it, because she's less attached to the media now that she's kind of got her mindset shifted. So yeah, even, even people like Paris Hilton,

Brandon Clark: 15:30

yeah, now you're making me really want to see that, because you're like, this is, this is definitely one of the essential pieces of like, the work that I do is helping people to sort of, like, see what these, these things that they're that are kind of in their head, their beliefs, and, you know, like, like you had, kind of shared with me, like she had, you know, some trauma there. And like you ultimately can't be like she, of course, she's using money as a way to sort of help create that safety. And, of course, money can create some level of safety, but, you know, so can also can therapy, you know, like so can healing. And, you know, there's, there's just a lot of different aspects to our relationship with with money. Because, I mean, really, it's just your the relationship with ourselves, you know, right? We project all these things on the money that are aspects of ourselves. So yeah, check that out now.

Erica D'Eramo: 16:30

I mean, right? Because that pursuit of all that was taking all of her joy away from her was taking like there was no happiness in it, right? There was no there was no satisfaction. There was no like, she was never stated or satiated, and kept ending up in these like relationships that seemed really troubled. And yeah, so like to what end the billion dollars can buy you a lot of therapy, but and it can buy you a lot of security guards, I guess. But ultimately, you gotta go do the you gotta go to the work, the internal work. So, yeah, interesting. But, I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to dismant diminish financial struggles either. Like I have lived a life where I had a lot of financial insecurity, and I have lived a life where I've had financial security, and while the financial security definitely didn't make me happy being able to put put food on the table and pay the mortgage or pay the rent, I think is really, you know, is is really valuable in terms of mental health. So I guess, who is this conversation for, right? Is this only for, like, tell me a little bit more, because maybe now, yeah, no,

Brandon Clark: 17:45

that's now that I'm actually glad that you brought up that context, because that context is super important, you know. I think that when I, you know, I my clientele tends to be, you know, people who can afford a financial advisor. I think that, you know, so a lot of the stuff I'm saying is kind of more geared towards professionals, but I think that you're absolutely right that, like, a baseline of just financial stability is necessary for everyone, and is really a part of just, like, overall wellness, and just the ability to, like, produce enough money, you know, for your basic needs, and then to start to be able to provide for, like, some of it, and just to have, like, a baseline of just overall health and wellness for yourself. So I mean, I think that that's a good point that you brought up. But I think that a lot of the things that I'll bring up today are things that people can use, kind of across the spectrum of of wealth, no matter where they are, because I think everyone has a relationship with money where they are with that, you know, probably differs, because if you're not in a position where you can, where you're making enough money to support yourself and those basic needs that you know, that is definitely a problem, and so, like, I don't, I'm not going to give you the tools to, like, you know, sort of improve your job. That's not what this conversation is about. But there's some great people out there who focus a bit more on on some of those things. You know, this conversation is a little bit more geared towards people who have, you know, some of the like, they've got a decent baseline covered, and and want to, you know, start to improve their relationship with money, and, you know, start to save and invest and address some of their, you know, some of the issues that they kind of see in their financial life. Yeah, I think there are emotions as well. Like, there, yeah, well, I don't, yeah. I guess maybe I'll, actually, I'll use the word like, when people. Find themselves a little bit stuck around money. I think that's the place where people start to notice, like, Ah, man, I really feel like I should be able to, like, save more, or, you know, afford, you know, just a slightly better house, like, and they feel a bit stuck. That's a lot of the place where I think the stuff we're going to talk about today can kind of help people to peel back some of the layers. It's

Erica D'Eramo: 20:23

interesting because I sort of stepped off the corporate conveyor belt to some extent, and took some big financial risks to do that. And so now, when I go back to, you know, we lived in Houston before, when I go back to Houston, I see some of the folks who have stayed the course, and, you know, are continuing to make more money in that realm, and are making, you know, like, way more money that I'm making right now, which is fine, like I made that decision intentionally, even they are still feeling like I don't have enough. I need more. I need another. I need another investment property. I need what about, what about the kids college? It's like it will never, it will never be enough. It'll never be enough. So, so yes, okay, so let's get into some of the meat of this when it comes to, when it comes to, like money mindset, what would you say some of the common myths or misconceptions are that you tend to encounter, like, what are some of these, maybe underlying beliefs?

Brandon Clark: 21:29

All right, well, I've got, I actually kind of prepared a few that I wanted to share, you know, today with the audience. And so I'll just kind of walk you through them. And so I've got, like, a couple things I want to do. I want this to be so I didn't ask your permission for this Erica, but I want to kind of, so I'll kind of pose a question so that the listener can, like, maybe pause for a second and then just sort of like, maybe they can do some journaling, some thinking about it before we, like, delve deeper into it. So that's, that's kind of how I'll do it. So the first one is this idea that money is complicated. So that's kind of like the first money myth, or, you know, sort of misconception I call them. I tend to call them rules, or subconscious rules. So at any rate, money is complicated, and so the first question I'm going to ask to our audience is, What mistakes have you made with money? And then the next question is, what's a mistake that your caregivers made with money? And then another one, which is, what Warnings Do you remember your caregivers may be saying to you around money? So,

Erica D'Eramo: 22:50

so I want to, I just want to mention, too that we'll put these in the show notes, so that for folks who are maybe listening to this and driving or doing dishes and they want to come back to this. This would be a great tool to do some journaling prompts for, yeah,

Brandon Clark: 23:08

so this idea that money is complicated, and the reason why I picked those prompts is because, you know, these are some of the, like, the roots that you can start to, like, just play around with and to start to, you know, engage a little bit to think about, you know, what like? You know, you've said this earlier in the podcast Erica, just, you know, you know, looking at your parents and sort of like, what was your situation like as a kid? You know, around money, what was it? What were the conversations that you overheard around it. So some of these ideas that money is hard, you know, for instance, or just that, like anxiety that you can feel around money, you know, they have roots in how people dealt with money, and those how you saw people interact with money. So that's kind of the, you know, the framework around this. But you know, ultimately, this idea that money is complicated. So I don't want to belittle people's struggles around money like that's definitely not it. But from like, the simplest point of view, if we can start to just pick the simplest little part of money that we can start to master, there's a totally different there's a much different like energy and a much different feeling that gives to you when you're able to start to look at that so, you know, at the most, at its most basic form, money is like you've got income that comes in, you've got your expenses that you've got to cover, and then You've got either a surplus, you know, which is money that you could potentially invest or save, or you've got a deficit, which means, at this day and age, it's going on credit card. So, like, figuring that out for your family, if you're kind of in this stuck place and you've got this, like, you know, a lot of angst, or just feeling that money is really complicated. You know, I actually one of the first things I recommend to people at times is just like, if that's how you feel, like, take a take a little bit of a diet, take a little bit of a break from credit cards, because then you'll be able to see that in income and expense part much more real time, because you can't spend money that you don't have now. So, like, you're gonna have to look at your bank account, you're gonna start to realize that. So really, the at its most basic core, you know, spending less than you earn. And that's sort of, you know, I guess some people call this like, that's like, when you think of your grandparents in the Depression, like that simple math is the most basic place. And like, starting from there, we don't have to get much more complicated than that to be good at money. You know, just being able to have some savings is kind of the bomb. But like, the biggest starting point, that gets you a long way.

Erica D'Eramo: 25:59

So, I mean, I think that there are, so, yes, there's the credit card piece or some other type of debt, or people have savings that maybe they're dipping into that, like rainy, rainy day savings, where the nest egg that they might be using for that, but ultimately, it's like a flow state, right? This is, like, volume in, volume out, what's the what's the Delta? Yeah,

Brandon Clark: 26:27

yeah. And I think the so, like, the, since we're going to be, like, working with mindsets a bit here, you know, I would say, like, the thing to for people to consider, you know, like I was saying they're like, if they notice that they've got this, that this one kind of resonates with them a bit, is just like, what? How could I simplify my money? What is like, what is the most? Or just saying, like, you know, money, money is simple. Like, if I think, if you start to just say that, open up times, or start to, like, think about that, then your mind can start to go to, like, the most basic elements and work, you know, with what's that? Just that one next step. We don't have to get all the way to the end, which is like, you know, the mansion you want to buy, or just the next house, but just focusing on, like, just that next step that's in front of you, rather than trying to get all the way to the end? Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo: 27:25

we don't, so we're not going to talk just now about inflation and compounding interest rates and all that fun stuff.

Brandon Clark: 27:33

That's exactly right, that that's for another day. That is, you know, and they may be, if that's I was gonna say for someone that could be their next step, but probably, probably not. Yeah, inflation is not under our control,

Erica D'Eramo: 27:49

right? So, okay, so money, this first, first kind of, maybe belief, limiting belief, perhaps, is that money is complicated, and we talked about some, some potential journaling lines of inquiry there, or reflection lines of inquiry. What's What's another one?

Brandon Clark: 28:08

Yeah, so my next one is work sucks. So, you know, we all have to go to work. You know, that's, well, not all of us, but most of us, but oh yeah, I was gonna say the other thing I was gonna do, like, back to our sort of prompt here. So the prompt I'll open up this one up with, is, what were the conversations or memories from your childhood around work? So yeah, I guess, you know, talking about this idea of work sucking, like I said, most of us have to work for money, you know, we've got to put food on the table. We've got to begin to meet. But the like the problem, I think the ultimate thing about this particular mindset is that it's, you know, it's ultimately creating, like work is the problem. And if we could own, if we could just get away from work, then, or this job, or what, you know, whatever it is, then life will be better. And it's, you know, ultimately, focusing so much on this problem leaves little room for other things in life. And so, you know, instead, I guess the focusing on the solution is what I think is most important. So, like, what is it that you actually want to be doing with your time? What's the impact that you want to be having in your life? You know, if you can focus your your thought, your mind, your efforts towards, you know, getting towards that place, and not so much on, like the work and, you know, the sucking of work, you know, it just creates, it creates much more space for, like, a productive conversation, something that you're moving towards, rather than something you're running. Running away from and I guess the other thing I'll kind of add to this as well as, you know, I feel like a lot of the problems that we create around money, you know, are kind of rooted in this area, you know, where escape, like, you know, kind of the the ultimate like the escaping work creates overspending problems. It sort of creates this like tension within us that not makes us not want to face our money and face sort of the inadequacy, inadequacy of it, of it all. And so if you can sort of create a more, you know, I move like this job is getting me to the place of this next career that I'm looking for that's a much more powerful place that you can start to like. It creates a different narrative of your about yourself. You're not a victim, but you're in control. You're using this position to get towards something else.

Erica D'Eramo: 30:53

Yeah, I think a lot of people, I will often say to clients like who might be unhappy in their roles that they really are or feel very trapped right, that they absolutely are opting in every day that they do have agency, every day that they are opting in. Now, are they opting in? Because if they don't, then the outcome is really bad, absolutely like, yes. They don't want to have their house foreclosed on. They want to put money put food on the table for their kids. So yes, but, but it is all in service of their values, like it's all aligned with their priorities and their values right now based on the options they have. So yeah, the options might not be great. We can look to expand the options, but they are choosing that instead of some other, not great options because it's aligned with their values. They're not just getting dragged in against their will, and, you know, being being forced to do this day in day out. They do have agency. They are the one in the driver's seat here, they just don't have a lot of great paths available to them at the moment. But there is another path available, which is let everything fall apart, let the house get foreclosed on, or, I mean, we can really start to look like is there a different house? Maybe there's a smaller house, maybe there's a different way of putting food on the table. Like, maybe there are other options here, but we are. I think a lot of people feel that they're in the passenger seat and don't realize that they're in the driver's seat. Even if the options aren't great, they are still choosing the most responsible option for them. And there's like, there is something really honorable in that and responsible in that. And I think we give ourselves, we a discredit when we don't acknowledge that we are choosing actively the responsible option that's in front of us right now.

Brandon Clark: 32:56

Yeah, I think that's a great point. Yeah, to add to that as well,

Erica D'Eramo: 33:00

I think that the piece around trying to escape is an interesting one, because even just that mindset about how you feel in, you know, lack of autonomy, lack of agency in that can lead to trying to find autonomy and agency in different ways, and that might look like costly behaviors, right?

Brandon Clark: 33:23

Yeah, yeah. I think that you know just definitely the point like acknowledging that you are making that choice to stay in the position to do the responsible thing, like, like that, that it just opens up so many different sort of doors and and, you know, it propels you towards things, rather than, you know, feeling sort of stuck and trapped. And I think that's, it's amazing how just those feelings change how we are in the world.

Erica D'Eramo: 33:58

It's interesting. I'm I, I'm not condoning this book or promoting it, because I have, I've only just started it so, so I don't have any opinions about it just yet. But, um, I started a book called adventures, and opting out by Kate Flanders. And she does, she sort of talks about, like, taking a path less traveled and, um, and she ties that into a discussion around, I think, I think where it's headed is a discussion around sobriety. And it sounds like the scene that she's setting is sort of one where she was trying to escape the misery of work by delving into things like alcohol and drugs and overspending and other ways of like finding peace or numbing, and that was causing a lack of financial freedom. So she had a job that was paying her lots of or like she was financially stable but or had a good income, I guess I should say, and had some of these markers. Of like, you know, the House and the whatever, the car, and the things that we indicate that indicate that we are on the right path in society. But in order to survive that, she was having to numb herself in other ways, that was kind of making it unsustainable. So we'll see. I mean, I'm interested in the book because a couple people have recommended it to me. But as you're talking I'm also hearing hints of like, The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, which is sort of a different realm. But again, these limiting beliefs around like, I can't go do that thing that I love because that's not what responsible people do, or I can't make money that way, or I just need to make a million dollars, and then I can go be a writer. Or I just need to go, I just need to nail that six figure salary, and then I can try pottery, or whatever it is. So, so, yeah, these names, yeah, that's

Brandon Clark: 35:56

actually a really, I was gonna say I hadn't even thought of like, this particular mindset, like, the work sucks one, because I was gonna say that's actually a great application of this too. Like, why people stay in jobs that they that they don't feel alignment with, even when, you know, even when they're in a good financial position, sometimes that limiting belief of, like, work now work has got to suck. Like, yeah, it's the one that's

Erica D'Eramo: 36:23

right. Like, right, right. The idea, yeah,

Brandon Clark: 36:26

I can't make money doing something that's like, pleasureful. So, yeah, that's also a great,

Erica D'Eramo: 36:37

I think that's also, there's a big cultural piece there too that, see, that feels very much like a Western I don't know America like kind of American ideology, and probably shows up in other countries and other cultures as well. But I don't think it's universal. I think some countries have a very different view. I think I think my Italian brethren might have some different views on that. I don't know. Yeah,

Brandon Clark: 37:06

and I actually the thing that you might want to like for the listeners, adding on to any of the prompts, like, you know, when I, I may say, like your caregivers, or something like that. But maybe even add on something around, like society, like, what, what did? What do you remember that society told you about work, you know, like, what comes to mind there? Because those are, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's another big lens that we tend to, like, absorb, that we're, you know, it's not always aware. We're not always aware of, you know, how that shapes us?

Erica D'Eramo: 37:40

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was raised in a Catholic household, so there were a lot of beliefs in Sunday school around, you know, even just happiness not really being a thing that was celebrated, right? You were supposed to suffer and have penance and all of this. And so, yeah, a lot of it's like in that Puritan, that Puritan thing, right?

Brandon Clark: 38:05

Yeah, the Protestant work ethic, and Protestant work ethic, very soon has, they have their own, you know, yeah, lenses towards things still, yeah, I also went to Catholic school, or I went to Catholic school. I don't know if you said that, but, but yeah, most raised Catholic, too. So

Erica D'Eramo: 38:25

yeah,

Brandon Clark: 38:26

may or may not, have some roles in how I view

Erica D'Eramo: 38:31

view money. Well, it's all about awareness building, right? All of this is just about exploring and the curiosity and yeah. So what is, what might be another line of inquiry to explore for some subconscious

Brandon Clark: 38:48

So money is for others, not for me. And the prompt I'll give everyone is, what's your first memory of money, and the second one is, What's your most vivid memory of something that money buys? I was going to share briefly. So one example for me that kind of I did some thinking on this more recently, and when I was a kid, I was a big carb off, and I remember we had, like, a family friend who had a Mercedes, and she was very fancy, and she always had, like, you know, she's, you know, really pretty hair and, like, nice, you know, just always dressed in the knives and stuff like that. And I definitely remember thinking like, wow, she's such a fancy, like, she's just so fancy. So anyway, that just comes up for me. And the reason why I'll bring that up for me is that I one of my own sort of things, is, I don't like to spend money. It's, it's, it can be somewhat painful for me to make, like, big. Purchases. It's probably not totally surprising, you know, since I'm a financial planner and a CPA, you don't think of us as big spenders anyway. At any rate, I think the This one comes up for me because, you know, I definitely never think of myself as like someone who's fancy. You know, I'm even deprecating myself now. So that's, that's just, you know, I'm actually playing this out for your real time. So, yeah, that's, that's just, it's just an interesting place to kind of look so those are the questions around this one. But the idea around this is just that, you know, memories that you have, how you were raised, how you think about money. And I think this is this one is somewhat universal, in some ways, that money is for other people. You know, it has a bearing just on how you interact with money now. And you know, it's important to just understand that of it, I

Erica D'Eramo: 40:57

can think of a couple people who might defy the odds on this, and who do seem to believe that money is for them, although they also came up through the finance world. So maybe that's maybe that's not me. Maybe that's not a total surprise, but I it's funny you mentioned the car piece, because actually that when you mentioned this, you know, memory that was the same for me, like and I grew up. I actually grew up in a very wealthy town in in Fairfield County, Connecticut, but we were not wealthy. And so in high school, I remember girls getting these, like brand new cars that they would drive, like Cabriolet or whatever, you know. And I remember the cabriolet, and I had my grandparents, 1980 Toyota Corolla that had, like, had pieces missing off of the body, and I had to go out there in the winter and, like, start it with a little screwdriver in the in the carburetor, like I had just the carburetor, and I would have to, like, put a brick on the gas to keep it going, or else it would just stall out in the winter and, and I had to pay for it myself, like $800 I'd pay myself. And I was working at a pharmacy at the time, just scraping by, and, and, yeah, totally it was like, money is for other people. These girls get these fancy cars. And I'm we called it the turd mobile because it was,

Brandon Clark: 42:31

Oh, yeah. I remember those the 80s. They, they, yeah, they did color cars to color, didn't they?

Erica D'Eramo: 42:39

I will say that Toyota Corolla is probably still running somewhere out there. That car was, that car was a beast. But anyways, yeah, money is for people.

Brandon Clark: 42:50

Yeah. So this, this one's, yeah, it's just an interesting one to look at. And, you know the idea that, like the so the way that this one plays out for me, I'll kind of elaborate on that, money is for me, but I have to save it. Money's not for me for spending so you like, if you play around with it enough for yourself, you might be able to, sort of like, pick out what your view is, and sort of how that, like, you know, impacts you. And then you get to decide, like, Hey, is that actually true? Is that actually how I want to be with money here,

Erica D'Eramo: 43:23

there is something here too about and you mentioned it at the beginning, like, what is the point of it? So for my husband and I, you know, we don't have any nieces or nephews, and we don't have kids, right? So, like, I can't take it with me. So when people, when I do talk to financial planners, you know, and they're like, Well, how much do you want to, you know, hand over to kids. Like, what do you what do you want? Like, talk about inheritance. And I'm like, I kind of want my accounts to be empty when I die, to be honest. Like, it doesn't mean I've spent it all, but maybe I've donated it or whatever. But I don't really want to have a bunch of pink accounts full of money when I die. That's not the point of it. So, so, yeah, it just depends different people have different so in terms of, like saving or spending one being good, or one being, you know, or or not, that's a very different thing. If I have kids and I want them, or have dependents of some sort, or have, you know, like a nonprofit that I really want to have a big donation to, or some low legacy, something like that, it changes what that looks like.

Brandon Clark: 44:31

Yeah, money is super personal, and, you know, like the plan that kind of makes it makes, you know, your money enough for, like, your unique circumstances. Like, it's definitely one of those things that's unique to you, that's the but, like, I think a lot of times it's like, our brains just do the math, and they're like, working in their own sort of context of, you know, just the plan that's going on in your head, and that's when it's like. All right. Well, you know, usually, if we're just letting the brain do it on its own, it's not, probably not doing it quite right,

Erica D'Eramo: 45:08

right? Exactly, heuristics. Heuristics are, biases are, are wild, yes. So what else? What else you got?

Brandon Clark: 45:20

All right. So one final one, you can never have enough of it being money. You can never have enough money. And so the prompt that I'll give is, what would you do if you won the lottery? You know, we already, we already asked this question. It's good to sort of like, jot some of the stuff down. And so I would encourage people, like, as they're going through this, like, you'll notice the stuff that comes out, like, up top you've got, you know, they'll probably be all the things you want, the houses, the the travel, the, you know, the stuff. Then you start to get to the things like somewhere in there that involve connection, impact, things like that. And so what I encourage people to do is to really, I mean, it's like they're ultimately focusing on the stuff that's, you know, impacting connection related. The reason why is because that's gives you, that gives you an idea of what your real dreams are and the things that are going to bring you last in happiness. You know that those things like, like, in terms of like, we're, we're all people like, everyone wants to be happy, right? And we think that, you know, the money, brand money, brings happiness, and it definitely does. But you know, one of the things I've noticed, especially working with clients, whenever they gotten by something, you know, like, buy a nice car, buy a nice house, you're you enjoy it, but then something breaks, and then the happiness goes away, you know, you reach like a career pedestal, like you reach a place you really want to in your career. Sometimes that sticks, sometimes it doesn't. But the things that build that lasting, you know happiness are things that involve, like connection and impact and things like that. So

Erica D'Eramo: 47:18

yeah, that's really interesting, actually, because, well, bringing it back to cars, I still remember when my husband bought this, like fun car that he'd really been wanting, and he had gotten a promotion at work, and so he got this car, and it was an Audi RS five. I don't know if that means anything to car nerds, but, yeah, fun car. It was green and it was Zoom, zoom. Fast car, I guess. And I remember there was some, like, little something on it, like some little tiny chip or something, right? And he started to get anxious about it, and I was like, Whoa, actually, time out. We need to have a chat, because if we you spent money on this, like we've invested in this. So I want it to bring you joy and fun and happiness, but I cannot have this hanging over our heads as a potential source of anxiety, and like just this crystal ball that could break at any moment, like things cars or cars, things will happen to cars. They will and you can get them repaired. You get them fixed. But this is not a collector's item, you know, we're not keeping it in. The the whole point is not for it to sit in a garage and never use it like, this is your commuting car. You'll put miles on it. It is what it is, right? Like, we just need to come to terms with that now, because I can't have it hanging over our heads, I can't handle being anxious about that. I don't want you to be anxious about it either. Like, we already spent the money on it, you know? Like, don't have it. Don't have it, cost us more emotionally than it did financially. So, and he was actually like, really good about that, but yeah, I'm like, I can't this is why I get so anxious about people buying me gifts. Actually, is because I'm like, please don't I break everything. Don't buy me anything that I'm going to be stressed about breaking. Yeah. Anyways, yeah,

Brandon Clark: 49:22

yeah. And, I guess the thing I'll also add on to this one is the whole idea of, like, you can never have enough of it is just that it's this sort of, it's a it's a place without bounds, like there's no end to it. You know, it's like, like an, I guess in your husband's example, it's like, if it has a scratch on it, then it's like, it's devalued, and it's got to be the pristine, brand new, like, you know, it's just something that's totally fleeting. So at any rate, my art the kind of opposite of this mindset. The thing I encourage people to do is like, No, my. Matter where you are to to determine that you have enough. And the even if it's so hard for you to believe like, like, take like, I'm not going to say this is easy, but if you can start to find a place of just like, I've got enough, like, in whatever way I have, whatever way you have. Maybe it's a little bit of savings. Maybe it's like, you know, you've got less credit card debt than last month. Whatever that enough is, then it's a building block. You know, you can, you can start from there and build and start building towards the things you know that you really want in life, you know? And these are those things that I mentioned that that kind of the second aspect of the list, the things that bring impact, things that bring connection. And so to set like ultimately, we each have to decide that we've got enough, because that's a place that we can actually start to be generative, and we can start to build from there. So no matter what, I'm cur like, I guess this is one of those things where I always try to, you know, also push clients, as well as to say, like, we've got it, like, whatever those things that you're delaying for later in life. Like, how can we bring those to today? How can we, like, if you want to be more charitable, like, okay, great, that's not something that we're going to do in five years. Because, yes, the portfolio is going to have grown. They're going to have grown, and, you know, maybe you'll have retired. And that seems like it makes sense. How do we make that goal happen in some form today and then build off of it.

Erica D'Eramo: 51:41

Yeah, I mean, there's also the, I think the the reason the car thing stood out to me so much in comparison to the connection, is because those material elements that you mentioned bringing kind of fleeting joy. It just feels like such a fragile, fragile type of joy, whereas the connections, the experience, the life experiences, those are a more resilient type of joy in my mind, right? Or more resilient type of value, even because a you can't take them away. You can't take that experience away from you. I mean, I don't know, perhaps something could happen that shifts your how you view it in the past, but it's still there in your memory bank forever, and the connections with people and in community like those will hold you up when things get tough. And exactly assets or the things you've collected, like you can sell them off, but they won't really hold you up.

Brandon Clark: 52:51

Yeah, that's exactly right, and it makes you more resilient to when you do, you know, because setbacks are always going to happen, like something you know, life happens, and that's, you know, when you've got strong community, when you're doing the things you want in your life, you know, it's just it doesn't hit you in the same way. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo: 53:15

So I, as I mentioned at the beginning, like we'll put some of these journaling prompts in the in the show notes, that people can reflect on them and maybe use them. If you are an artist, sway person, a Julia Cameron fan, you can maybe write about these in your morning pages. I'm trying to get back to my morning pages, so I'll put that out there. But how would you say people can start to become more aware, like, more self aware, just more conscious of these underlying either beliefs or myths or mindsets. Yeah,

Brandon Clark: 53:53

I would say just like, focus in on areas where there's like, I don't know, I feel very coachy when I say this, whether it's energy where there's like, sort of frustration, envy is another strong one, basically, like strong feelings, like, Yeah, so like looks, so that's a, you know, whenever you notice that around something especially money related, or, you know, kind of money, work status, all of these areas start to get a little bit curious. Journaling is one way to start to just sort of write things down, you know, talk to friends, things like that. But these are, that's one thing. The other thing I recommend called Money scripts. So you could probably just Google that, but there's four money scripts, and these are kind of similar to these rules that I've brought up in the conversation, rules or unconscious belief. So we have but the form money scripts are money avoidance, money vigilance, money worship and money status. And just to kind of give you a primer on them, I won't go through them. I don't think enough time, but each one of these, the idea around them is that they are neither good nor bad. They just are. They're just ways that people tend to look at money and, you know, there's, it's not like you just have one, or like you're, you're born with this, you know, die with this. These are just like, sort of lenses that you kind of can see the world through. And so if you Google those, and sort of look at those, they're like, each one of those. And it can be, maybe you have one or two, but they can, you know, as you read about them, you can sort of see that how they may affect how you're dealing with money. Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo: 55:52

great. That's, that's great. We'll also include link through that as well. So and is that, is that through, like an organization or through a website? Yeah,

Brandon Clark: 56:03

there's, there's a guy named Brad Klontz, and I think his father, they're, they're both therapists or psychologists, and they specialize in kind of this, like intersection of psychology and money. So I'll try to find a link to send you for that. But they, you know, they have this assessment. I think you have to, you know, like, pay money for it, which, of course, yeah, but I don't have, like, a free way for people to, like, take that assessment. But I think just reading them, I'll try to find them right up and send it to you. If you can include in the show notes, just reading through them, you'll be like, I think that sounds like,

Erica D'Eramo: 56:44

yeah, be helpful. Cool. So we've talked a lot about mindset and kind of through the coaching, through the coaching lens. What? What are some ways that people, that you help people create this type of financial freedom, wearing your financial advisor hat?

Brandon Clark: 57:03

Sure. So one of the things I focus a lot on is, just like, you know, freedom in the present tense. Like, how do you create? How is it that you create more freedom for yourself? You know, in in these years, like the next 135, years, even if you're still working. So usually that looks like, you know, building like focusing on building like an emergency fund. You know, these are things that people probably have heard before, but, you know, emergency fund is kind of like the first place, and then sort of reserves for different goals or projects that you have in mind, you know, maybe you want to career shift. You know, how do we sort of create the financial pathway, you know, to you be able to, like, take time off work, you know, per school, pursue schooling, things like that, you know, I guess one of the things I'm really big on is systematizing savings. And, you know, the same way that, like, it's easy for most Americans now to save into their retirement because, you know, like most 401, K certs have started to auto enroll people, and people don't see that money. You know, I do the same. I highly encourage all my clients. And usually that's what we one of the first things we do when we've got a goal is we, we start to auto save in some light, so that that gold is getting funded, you know, whether it's investments, whether it's, you know, just a savings account, whatever it is. We also work a lot on protection, you know. So that's a few different areas, things like insurances, estate planning, basically. How do we prevent, like, here's the thing, I'm not a deputy downer, but I always say plan for the worst and hope for the best. But how do we make sure that nothing like that nothing derails your plan, so to speak. So that's an important aspect of planning as well. You know, one of the, I guess, for you know, one of the other things that I also am a big proponent of is saving outside of retirement as well. Like, I think most people are only saving in their retirement, and that creates, you know, it just makes it very hard to sort of make these shifts in life, especially if you're someone who wants a level of independence, and so that's, you know, one of the other things I'm a proponent of. So yeah, those are just some of the things that I focus in on. But then all obviously, I look at, you know, the future to retirement, you know, college savings, all that stuff as well. So

Erica D'Eramo: 59:42

how would you describe your style, I guess, and we talked about this a little bit with the coaching realm, but I know that it can be really daunting for people to talk to somebody about something like money, especially if they are carrying some of these beliefs, or if they've been shamed in the past. So. So how do you describe your style?

Brandon Clark: 1:00:03

Sure, I would say I'm pretty I try to generally be pretty gentle with people. I think that's just kind of my nature. I'm not like a hardcore person at the same time I am. I will tell someone like it is, you know, if their goals are unrealistic, or if they in, you know, just depending on the person and like what they need. And sometimes I can come down a little harder if necessary. But, you know, usually I try to if someone's pretty reasonable, you know, can can deliver that news in a way that they're able to accept it and not totally derail their their hopes and dreams. So I don't know I I think, I think one thing, one thing about me as I kind of, I try to meet people where they are. I think that that's one thing that I've always been fairly good at, is, you know, I think I tend to be a bit more empathetic than the average financial advisor. And it just, you know, my background and coaching and so forth is just kind of an example of that. I decided, like, Oh, I'm not going to just jump into financial planning. I'm going to, like, take this sort of, this other career path where I really want to understand people and how they tick and and all that, yeah? So, yeah, ultimately I try to see, like, trying to understand, like, what, like, you know, what does this person need? And now, how can I be the best advisor to them?

Erica D'Eramo: 1:01:35

Yeah, I think the first time I spoke to somebody who was like, well, just what do you want to do, and then we'll just try to figure out how to get there. I thought, oh, that's That's great. Okay, let's do it. Like, we'll just look at the options and mitigate for the risk. And that really appealed to my engineering brain, but I expected

Brandon Clark: 1:01:55

that sounds like a good advisor. A lot of times, people start out with, like, I'm gonna tell you what you need. Like, I barely even know you. I'm just gonna tell you what you need.

Erica D'Eramo: 1:02:05

Or they'll, they'll focus on, like, what you should have done and didn't do. And you're like, man, what's done is done. Okay, cool. Maybe I should have, like, diversified this one thing, or I should have, like, invested in whatever a hot, you know, I should have moved this into a high yield savings, or I should have done, like, whatever, some people invest a bunch of money in some startups and they lose it all. I didn't do it, you know, like, and that's fine too, right? Like, that was their risk decision. So it is what it is. But, like, we can't there's, that's one thing that I think I do wish folks in any realm, any realm, whether it's the people working on your gutters or the people who are helping you plan your financial stuff. Like, let's just be forward focused, because if you can't change, you know, like you can learn from the past, but I think that people get worried that somebody's going to pick apart their past decisions and or maybe, maybe I'm just projecting, but I've never found it helpful when somebody has been like, well, you should have done X, Y and Z, and it's like, Well, okay, but I don't have a time machine, so let's just focus On point forward, what are we going to

Brandon Clark: 1:03:23

do? Yeah, that's definitely not my style. The only way that I would usually bring up the pass is just if there's something where, like a client still has that, like the scar from that, so to speak, yeah, and so then, like, helping them to sort of see how that's like, you know, maybe limiting how they're moving forward. But, you know, usually otherwise, it's like, why would you be talking about the past here?

Erica D'Eramo: 1:03:51

Also, we can't understand all eventualities. And this is one thing where I think, when I work with clients who have regrets about stuff and like, Oh, I wish I had quit this job and gotten that other job or whatever, and it's like you but you don't actually know how that would have worked out. Like, we can have an idealized way of believing that, but we all are making the best decisions we can at the time with the information we have right. Like, that's That's it. We make the best decision you can. And I think we can all think about what could have been, but when push comes to shove, if you had taken that other path or invested something, some other way you don't know, you might still be there being like, damn it, I wish I had XYZ. So there's not, yeah, there's not much, much point in that. So it sounds like you have a very supportive and empowering style for clients, which I think is awesome. So if people like the sound of that and wanted to connect with you and find out more about either the coaching or the financial advising, where can they find you Sure?

Brandon Clark: 1:04:55

So my coaching practice is called re examine wealth. You know, I have a website. Re examine wealth.com, I also, I'm not that active on social or on Instagram, but I do have an Instagram for my coaching practice that's also re examine wealth. Then my financial planning practice is that I work in is called Toler Financial Group. So I was going to say, reach out to me, in either place, I don't have a strong preference, I guess, if you really know that you want help on the financial like, you know, on the actual tactics, like, you know, setting up investments. You know, some of that stuff, total or financial, is the best place, if you are more, you know, thinking about some of the mindset related stuff, you know, re examine wealth. But either place, you know, I'm happy to talk to you.

Erica D'Eramo: 1:05:43

Awesome. We as always, will include that in the show notes so that you can you can connect. And I think you're on LinkedIn as well, right?

Brandon Clark: 1:05:51

I Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. Erica, I meant to say LinkedIn, yeah, I tend to be a bit more active there

Erica D'Eramo: 1:05:57

than Instagram. Yeah. Same. So awesome. Well, if, what would you say your like, final takeaway is that you want people, if they walk away with one thing today, what would you say that would be,

Brandon Clark: 1:06:11

um, you're doing better than you think, like, whatever your whatever your worst, like, likely, whatever is in your head of how you are with money is probably not really your reality. So give yourself a bit of credit.

Erica D'Eramo: 1:06:30

Yeah, I agree. I think we all catastrophize and think it's we're gonna end up living under a bridge, I don't know. Yeah. And then whenever I talk to a financial advisor, I'm like, Okay, so I'm gonna end up living under a bridge. And they're like, you know, you're gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. Like, we just need the person to tell us it's gonna be fine. So thank you, right? Like, we are all operating in our reality. We're all doing the best we can.

Brandon Clark: 1:06:57

I really also want to normalize that. Like, how quickly our brains go to like, we're gonna be living underneath the bridge, you know, like that worst place. And that's so common in every client. You know, every across the spectrum of my clients, that's just, it's, it's, we're ingrained with that so,

Erica D'Eramo: 1:07:21

and I don't want to, like, I don't want to make light of the houselessness challenge and housing insecurity in this country, like, I really feel like a lot of people are just right on that edge of it, and also, like, the panic of that doesn't is not productive, doesn't help anything. So getting it out in the open, really understanding like, are we? Are we one month away from a really bad situation, or is this not actually that bad? We have a lot more options, especially if we act quickly. So yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on and and sharing a bit about what you do and some of these mindsets that you've observed in your work. And we really appreciate it. I really, really enjoyed the conversation. And for folks looking to find a recap of this, you can find it on twopiersconsulting.com so we'll have a recap. We'll have links to all of Brandon's stuff. So thanks so much. Brandon,

Brandon Clark: 1:08:22

thank you, Erica. I really enjoyed the conversation as well. Thanks so much for having me on and I'll see you soon. You