The Two Piers Podcast
The Two Piers Podcast
Women's History Month with Historian Maya Rook
Welcome back to the Two Piers Podcast!
In this episode, we delve into the rich tapestry of history with our guest, Maya Rook, a cultural historian and the driving force behind Illusory Time—a project making history enjoyable, accessible, and relevant.
Join us as Maya unravels the fascinating narrative behind Women's History Month, exploring its evolution and the captivating stories it aims to bring to light. As an adjunct instructor at Southern New Hampshire University and the creative mind behind Firefly Studio in Bath, Maine, Maya adds a unique perspective to the academic and metaphysical dimensions of our past.
Discover the journey of women’s studies in academia, the intricate dance of intersectionality with other movements, and captivating stories from the annals of history. From the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Confederacy to the influential Matilda Joslyn Gage and the compelling story of Anna Douglas, Maya sheds light on figures often overshadowed by time.
Together, we unravel the purpose behind dedicating an entire month to women's history and ponder the inception of Women's History Month itself. Through this discussion, Maya introduces us to lesser-known heroines, prompting us to question: "Why is it crucial to spotlight these stories? How did Women's History Month emerge, and who are the unsung heroes waiting to be heard?"
Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we explore history beyond the conventional narrative, seeking to integrate the diverse and profound contributions of individual women into the broader tapestry of our shared past. Tune in for an insightful conversation that transcends the confines of a calendar month, celebrating the profound impact of women on the ever-evolving story of humanity.
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have a guest joining us to talk about Women's History Month, which is the month of March. So Maya Rook is joining us today. She's a cultural historian who offers public history talks on a range of topics through her ongoing project called illusory time, which is focused on making history fun, accessible and relevant. She also teaches online at with Southern New Hampshire University as an adjunct instructor. In addition, she also teaches yoga and meditation and is the creator of Firefly studio in Bath, Maine, the community and event space for meditation movement, metaphysical practices and more. So I have had the opportunity of joining quite a few of Maya's online talks and in person talks, and have just found her framing of history to be so interesting and kind of tackling biases and all sorts of stuff that we know we love to talk about on the Two Piers podcast. So I'm super excited to have Maya on today to talk about something that we hear a lot about, and maybe don't know a ton of the history of, which is Women's History Month. Thank you so much, Maya, for joining us today. We're really excited to have you.
Maya Rook:Thank you, Erica. It's good to be here.
Erica D'Eramo:So I, you know, talk a little bit about what you do in your kind of world as a historian, but what what's the story of Maya? Like? How did how did you come to this place where you get to talk about all sorts of fun stuff.
Maya Rook:Yeah, as you might have guested from the bio, my life has taken me in a few different directions. So the story of Maya has kind of many origins. But when I think about my role as a historian, I really think goes back to my childhood. And I always had a love of stories and language and books. I was reading all the time. So when I was a kid, I didn't really think of myself necessarily as like, Oh, "I'm a big history person," or that was something I was going to pursue. But I can definitely see it reflecting back something like a seed that was already there. So I remember being in fifth sixth grade, and stumbling across this area in the juvenile nonfiction section of the library, where they had all the books about witches and witchcraft, and witch trials. And I took out literally every single book that I possibly could, and I became obsessed with it. So I really tried to dive as deep as I could for somebody who's that age. And when I look back at it, I'm like, "Oh, that was my first self motivated, research project." And I really continued to do that throughout my years as a teenager. I don't always love history classes, a lot of times, really, depending on the teacher, I'd find them boring, especially if it focus on a lot of things like dates, and names and wars. But I always did love finding these different topics, and these things interested me, and then spending time just exploring them going to the library, and really getting into the history and origins of you know, whatever my interest was, at the time. When I got into college, I really took a multicultural approach to my studies. And I ended up double majoring in history and Black Studies, and I minored in Asian studies. And you can probably tell from that, like, I enjoy looking at things from different perspectives, looking at things through a cultural lens. And I loved taking the Black Studies and the Asian Studies classes because it helped me to disrupt this sort of mainstream historical narrative when I was in my, you know, quote, unquote, traditional history classes, by helping to bring in these other perspectives I was learning about from those classes. So I did decide to pursue history. And then I went on to get a master's degree in American cultural history from the University at Albany. Further, I attended a doctoral program at Drew University, which is in northern New Jersey, in a program for history and culture. I ended up leaving that to go in different directions, I really found that it was setting me up for that kind of tenure track life, and that that wasn't what I wanted to do. I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to do, but I knew that I could teach with my master's degree. And so I started to pursue some other avenues. But I always come back to teaching. And it's been wonderful to teach online, but I missed that in person connection of being in the classroom. So I just kind of started on a whim offering in person history talks, and I would pick different topics. This is when I lived in Rochester, New York, and the first one I did was the Salem witch trials and and it sold out. I mean, it was amazing the response to it. Yeah. People love the Salem witch trials,
Erica D'Eramo:Especially in New England and New northeastern area.
Maya Rook:Yeah, for sure. Well yeah, I just found I kind of had a knack for it, it was a really fun way for me to continue to pursue all these different interest and take deep research and academic level research and make it accessible to the general public. And I love to create events, whether it's through history, or through the stuff I do at Firefly studio with meditation, and yoga and other activities, but to create meaningful things for people to do. And to think this is just one avenue that I've found to do that.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. So that's, I, I love this element of kind of doing the history major alongside the more like disruptive type of frameworks that maybe counterbalanced what we think of as kind of typical American history. So it doesn't surprise me that I'm, I tend to be really drawn to the topics that you talk about, including the Salem witch trials, I did attend that one, as well. So why to kind of get into the topic of Women's History Month, why, you know, why do you think we need a whole month for this for women's history when we make up 50% of the population?
Maya Rook:Yeah, so you would hope that history of women would also make up 50% of the sort of standard historical narrative, but, and maybe we're getting closer to that now. But just overall, it hasn't been like that. And a lot of times women's history has been overlooked. It's been excluded from mainstream history, or sort of seen on the sidelines or just not as important. So if for, you know, centuries, it's been left out a history books, it's been left out of the classroom, it's been left out of those narratives that we, you know, we, in our pop culture as well, it needs to be brought in. And so it really, it makes the stories of women seem undervalued to seem ignored. So to take an entire month and say, you know, women's history is something that needs to be honored. And that we need to focus on, I think that makes a lot of sense, because we're reminding ourselves when we tell these stories during Women's History Month, like women are important to our past, they're important to our present, and the stories need to be protected. I also think that our access to history is access to power. Because it's really a way that people can understand their own identities, their ancestors, people who came before, they can look to people for inspiration. And if you don't have access to that you simply don't know and people can feel really lost when their history is stripped from them.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, yes, absolutely. So with the concept of Women's History Month, I guess, where did this sort of originate from? What's... How did this come into being like, I don't even, to be frank, I don't even know when we first celebrated Women's History Month.
Maya Rook:Yeah, so Women's History Month really began with women's history week. So there was a celebration that was proposed in 1978, in California, and you probably are familiar with International Women's Day, which is March 8, and that actually goes all the way back to 1911. So that's a whole other story. But that one was created by a social democratic activist. And it was really focused on the struggles of working women. So that'd been around for a while. So in Sonoma, they planned all these special programs for schools, they had community women come into classrooms, to give of presentations, and they had a big celebratory parade. So it was a success. And one of the women who was involved, Molly Murphy McGregor, she was invited the next year to go to Sarah Lawrence College for the Women's History Institute, which was one of the early women's history academic programs in the United States. So she goes to this institute, and she lets people know, right, like, what happened at the Women's History Week and people were really inspired by it. And they decided they wanted to initiate similar celebrations in their own communities, their own school districts or organizations. So they also decided to work together to lobby for a National Women's History Week, and they were pretty quickly successful. So by February 1980, President Jimmy Carter issues a presidential proclamation declaring the week of March 8, National Women's History Week. So from that point, it just continues to grow continues to spread. They start developing curriculum materials in different schools are cross the nation. And it always coincides with International Women's Days. But every year, they had to lobby for it. So it's a lot of activism. It's a lot of effort to get this to go through as a national national week.
Erica D'Eramo:That's crazy. I didn't realize that.
Maya Rook:Yeah, right? So they're really, every year they're having to lobby to Congress. So some of the states are, over the years starting to do this as an entire month already. And they begin to lobby for March, just to be National Women's History Month, and in 1987, they are successful with that. And they essentially declare with a joint resolution that, you know, this March of 1987, and every March heretofore is going to be National Women's History Month. So it does take until about 1987 for that to become official.
Erica D'Eramo:So, Okay, we start, we start out in like the late 70s. And I guess in my head, I was thinking that the genesis of this was more around like, you know, women's lib and birth control and that kind of, but this is actually even later in the timeline than that, by the time it sort of an in the mid seven, I'm sorry, in the mid 80s. I mean, this is now within my lifetime. So I yeah, I didn't realize that I am older than Women's History Month in the US. Interesting.
Maya Rook:Yeah, yeah, it is interesting. And I know for myself, I didn't realize it until I started to research when Women's History Month came into being because I remember being in elementary school. So for me, that was like 1990 and 1995. And I remember doing women's history, month activities. And so I just assumed that this is just something that's always been here. I didn't know how fresh it actually was.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. Maya, like, I'm gonna be real. The history of women's quote unquote, lib in the US is not necessarily a pretty one in some cases, right? I mean, especially voting rights, there's a lot that goes along with that whole journey that includes a lot of racism, a lot of disenfranchisement of anyone who is not a white woman. So when we hear Women's History Month, like, I'm not gonna lie, part of me is always a little bit like, yeah, and which women? Like which women are we focusing and highlighting here? So what you know, especially with your background and context, like what would you what would your thoughts on that?
Maya Rook:So when we look back at the white suffragist women that a lot of times people focus on when we talk about women's history, they didn't really have the awareness of how their own struggles and their challenges were intertwined with people of color, with indigenous people with Black women. And for the time, I think that they, they didn't have the language and they also lived in a society that was, even the ones who were abolitionists also still had racist and prejudice underpinnings about where they all kind of fell in society. So it's interesting, because the recognition of that interconnection, almost doesn't really come until the 1980s. Yeah. So it's a really long time. And I think we can in a lot of ways, I thank the, thank some of these different academic programs like women's history, so just as a little background on that women's history, or women's studies, rather, I should say, because it contains other elements as well. Women's Studies, Black Studies, Latino Studies, LGBTQ studies, and all these different sort of areas of focus really start to develop in the 1960s. But a lot of times they're operating in these different pockets. By the time we get to the 80s, people are starting to call out more how these things come together. And Kimberlee Crenshaw in 1989 is going to coined the term intersectionality. All right, so it's really yeah, this base, it's like race, class, gender, all these different characteristics, they intersect with one another, and they overlap. And something really important about that is that it helps us to see that we can't really understand systems of power and systems of oppression without recognizing how all these different components work together. So the women in the suffrage movement, they did not have an awareness of that. And we even to this day, still are suffering repercussions from that in the way people see themselves as divided into different demographics. And I think it's important to remember that we all do have our differences. And at the same time, those differences connect in a way that can bring us together and that we can work in tandem with one another rather than as separate entities.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I mean, it's the age old way of maintaining power structures of pitting different marginalized groups against each other to kind of struggle with each other for the limited, usually artificially scarce resources, attention, power, etc. So, yes, yeah. And we're still seeing it.
Maya Rook:Yeah, and I think we especially look at the women's suffrage movement. Even when we see situations where there have a willingness to let Black women into their organizations, there's still a sense of superiority, and inferiority. So I'd be happy to talk a little bit more about that, and some of the examples around that era. Because it is, it is interesting to me that with Women's History Month, as you said, a lot of times, the mind like automatically goes to women's suffrage as though gaining the right to vote and that fight is somehow a marker of us becoming equal in society. Which, you know, there's there's a step there. And I don't want to dismiss any of the good work that suffragists did, I think it's important for women and for all people in a nation to have the vote. But the mind automatically goes there. And it always goes to women who are white, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucy Stone, Alice Paul, those are some of the big names. And they're really seen as the main forces here that are paving the way.
Erica D'Eramo:So you listed a bunch of names that I recognize, what are some of the names of folks that we don't hear about that we should be hearing about that you come across in your research.
Maya Rook:So when I think about the people who are often not recognized in the story of women's suffrage, I often will go to the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. So sometimes this is also called the Iroquois Confederacy or the Six Nations, so people may have heard different terms. And these were indigenous people to the regions of Western and Central New York. So there's a lot we can learn from looking to women in these communities. Many historians look to the Haudenosaunee and their principles as actually been the foundation for the ideals of democracy in America and the beginning of the fight for equal rights for women in the United States. But people like Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, you never see them talking about that.
Erica D'Eramo:Like were they aware of this existing and they just like didn't give credit or were they kind of indirectly influenced?
Maya Rook:These women were definitely influenced by the Haudenosaunee. The women's suffrage movement is born in Western New York. They were in the same exact regions. And we do know from one woman, Matilda Joslyn Gage who does give them credit, writes, a book, talks about it, she actually goes and lives with them, she lives with the Mohawk clan is initiated into their clan brought into a council and given the right to vote in the 1890s within their council, before women in the United States could even legally vote.
Erica D'Eramo:I literally just got goosebumps here. Also, it really goes to show that these were contemporaries, this was not like this is not ancient history history here. These were absolutely contemporaries. Yeah.
Maya Rook:Yeah. So we know that the suffragists saw how their society was structured, the roles that women held, they were inspiring. So when we look at the Haudenosaunee, and they're made up of a few different nations, so just in case people are curious, it's the Seneca, Oneida, Cayuga, Onondaga, Mohawk and Tuscarora, you may have heard of these nations before. So within these nations of the Haudenosaunee, they possess political power, they possess economic independence, they had agency when it came to their own bodies, and they also would serve in spiritual ceremonies as leader. So in all aspects of society, they had an ability to be seen and treated as equals. So part of this also is that they're to matrilineal society within each clan, there would be a female ancestor, and that through which your line was passed. So each clan had a clan mother as the head of it. Everything is through the female ancestor. So if you are a woman, and you have children, and you have daughters, and they get married, they don't leave your long house to go live with their husband and their husband's family, the husband would actually come to live with you. So it was just a different structure to the society.
Erica D'Eramo:I have thoughts.
Maya Rook:Well, let me know.
Erica D'Eramo:I mean, it sounds very logical to be honest, especially if you know that's, if like babies are being birthed and there is like, you know, multi generational support in the family to like help raise children and do some of that activity, then to me, I, you know, I think for a lot of people who end up having a child, they usually look to the person who birthed them for help with that process and kind of what the best practices were. And so, to me, it does make sense that you're gonna go to the person that you have the trust with, and that you know the most closely and, you know, in your most vulnerable physical moments of childbirth, that you would be with the people who birthed you. So those are my thoughts.
Maya Rook:Yeah, absolutely. I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I think it really shows respect for women, and what part of their role is in society, or the roles that they might hold as a mother as a daughter, as somebody who does give birth. So the clan mothers were really super important to the social, the political dynamics of their communities, and men still had power. So men would hold the role of the chief. But it's the clan mothers, they're the ones who actually determine and nominate the men. So it's not operating separately, but women are really instrumental in nominating who the chief is going to be. So a lot of times, they're watching boys grow up in their communities, and then carefully selecting who's going to be able to take this role. Now, I think you're gonna appreciate this. So there are three qualifications to become a chief in the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. First, they cannot have committed a theft. Second, they cannot have committed a murder. And third, they cannot have sexually assaulted a woman. Which, to me is something that I think in our modern day, we should probably bring that into our political system. When you think about the things that people have been accused of, or just outright seeing the disrespect that male political leaders have had for women in the public sphere.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I would second that. Second that motion.
Maya Rook:Just I love it that the respect for women is built right into the political system. And then another aspect is that the clan mothers also have the power to remove chiefs from their positions, which I think is also very important.
Erica D'Eramo:*Deep sigh* Yeah.
Maya Rook:Yeah. I also find it really interesting. I was reflecting on this today that, you know, we know that the suffragists are turning to these communities as inspiration for social and political movements in this fight for equality. But the thing is that within the Haudenosaunee, they were already equal. So it was just built into the way that they lived, where as with the United States, these women are having to push and push and push. And then it's like, they're finally given the right to vote. It's not really coming from a place of like, oh, we women are equal. There is a lot of people who, even to this day, don't necessarily see it like that. So even though the political right is given the cultural aspect, I think, is something that we're still having to, to work with.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I mean, it is, in any power struggle for more equality. There's always this interesting tension, right, that you're claiming the foundation of equality and also needing to work within the system to have the powers that be "grant it", which kind of undermines the very equality in and of itself. And here we are, so yes, enter? Yeah, definitely interesting. I mean, a lot of the suffrage movement was also built around this, like a backlash against drinking.
Maya Rook:The temperance movement?
Erica D'Eramo:Like were those separate, kind of influences, the Haudenosaunee and the temperance, or for them? Do they see this as one in the same kind of all consistent?
Maya Rook:I don't know of any connection between the Haudenosaunee and the temperance movement, and then the suffrage and the temperance movement, oftentimes did overlap with the people who were involved might have also felt strongly or supported and thought for temperance as well. And I think a lot of that has to do with the temperance movement being led by women. So sometimes that was the first time that they were able to take some kind of political stand or social stand to call for a decrease in drinking, or for an entire pro prohibition of alcohol. A lot of women were inspired because they saw the damage that happened in the home. And they were very concerned about the home and families. And so sometimes those aspects came together, or if they took their first step towards fighting for social change for the temperance movement, then that might segue them into wanting a right to vote so that they could actually have a political vote voice and vote for what they cared about.
Erica D'Eramo:Right. Okay. Yeah, that that makes sense. Just there's this like tension in my head about like fighting for the power, but then also sort of that like, puritanical edge to it a little bit. That brings you back to more like conservancy... Conservancy.
Maya Rook:Okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. So I, I was not familiar with the Haudenosaunee and their influence on this. And this feels like a much, like much more full. And, I don't know, interesting kind of origin story for women's history than and women's equal rights than what I'd previously understood.
Maya Rook:Yeah, and I do want to mention that Matilda Joslyn Gage one more time, because not only was she somebody who respected the Haudenosaunee who spent time with them, who she wrote an entire book called woman, church and state and talked about the Haudenosaunee. She does refer to them to the Iroquois Confederacy, a book you can actually just find online easily and read copyright free now. But she also in that book was wrote about the witch trials, which I always kind of bring things back to. Yeah, she was one of the first people to really on an in depth level research the witch trials and determined that women were unfairly targeted during the witch trials, and to actually call it out and say that this was an attack on women. So she's got a lot of different interesting things going on there. And then one more thing about Matilda Joslyn Gage is that she was the mother in law of L. Frank Baum, who you might recognize as the author of The Wizard of Oz.
Erica D'Eramo:Yes, yes.
Maya Rook:So she was very close with L. Frank Baum, she lived with him. And she was very influential. She also was a member of the Theosophical Society. So she was involved with spiritualism and seances and these kind of alternative ways of looking at the world and metaphysical practices. And so it's, it seems that she had a big influence on Baum, and that she may have helped lead him towards the creation in the wizard of oz of not just having a Wicked Witch of the West, which we can see as like old stereotypes of the evil female witch, but also to create the Good Witch. And to show this other perspective of what witches could be. And when I've done my research on witches, witchcraft, witch trials, and particularly with the representation of witches and pop culture, we see a major shift that happens with the Wizard of Oz, because it starts to expand our understanding of how witches are perceived. And so from that point, you can almost look at any representation of a witch as being like coming from this thread of the Wicked Witch, or the Good Witch, and I really think that Matilda Joslyn Gage is one of these people that helps us to get that so people have been influenced by her and their perception of the world and witches have far more than they probably know, most people have never even heard of her name before.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, wow. That's crazy. I mean, now that I'm thinking about it, that movie probably was an early movie that passed the Bechdel Test.
Maya Rook:I mean, yeah, that's true. They don't really. They don't really talk about men all that much, I guess.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. Maybe Toto, but yeah. You know, I guess the wizard, but he's kind of like, a bit of an afterthought, in a way.
Maya Rook:Yeah. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. She sounds like a really interesting person.
Maya Rook:Well, so I'll say that Matilda Joslyn gage and she also was a suffragist, very early suffragists and feminists. And she's one of the sort of white female suffrage just that I I feel very good about holding up very high. It's not to say that, you know, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, like didn't do good work, but a lot of times people have sung their praises so much without really looking at the nuances of what they were doing and saying and how the fight for the right to vote was impacted by racism and prejudice. So as the fight for women's suffrage is developing, they end up creating an association in the late 1860s. And another association is created at the same time, it's because there was a split amongst a suffragist. And that split came over their beliefs from the 15th. Amendment. This is right after the Civil War. There's a proposal with the 15th Amendment, that Black men would be granted suffrage. And some of the people believed that they should fight also for the right for Black men to vote, and other people believed they shouldn't. So even though Anthony and Stanton, they had supported abolitionism, they refused to support the 15th amendment. And Susan B Anthony, she was friends with Frederick Douglass, who's this incredible orator in this abolitionist and she told him in a meeting, that "I will cut off this right arm of mine before I will ever work or demand the ballot for the Negro and not the woman." Yes. Oh. And even without. And, you know, they were friends. But that was how Yeah, that's how she felt.
Erica D'Eramo:I mean, at least she was honest, instead of saying that she supported and then backstabbing, I guess. Yeah.
Maya Rook:Yeah. But of course, you know, the 15th Amendment does get passed, Black men do gain the right to vote. Well, that's a whole other story. Because Jim Crow laws and violence, the majority of black men did not really get the right to vote anyways. But it creates this division amongst the suffragettes and it's going to last for at least until the 1890s. So if you just think about how much could have been And then yeah, there was even one of the biggest accomplished, during that time between 1869 and 1890, when the were split over these views very much largely rooted in racism and prejudice, what could have been accomplished during that time, and what could have been accomplished by supporting Black men helping them to get the right to vote, what would have been returned afterwards in their fight for women's suffrage? So again, like they couldn't, they didn't see the intersection between the challenges that they faced. And when the two different suffragist groups finally come together, they also at that time, a lot of times, they were not letting in Black women's suffrage club in, clubs into the larger Association. They were afraid that this might anger white Southerners, so they didn't want to rock the boat by letting Black women and their associations into the larger organization. examples, there's this huge suffragists parade in 1913, in Washington, and the association demands that the Black participants march in an all black assembly at the back of the parade, whereas everybody else was with their state delegations, but didn't matter, you know, which state you're from. If you were Black, you had to go into the all Black assembly at the back.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I mean, this is I think this is the important stuff to uncover when we talk about women's history month. So sounds like a lot of the activity kind of occurred in this either New England or New York area. What are some of the other figures that perhaps we don't have on our radar?
Maya Rook:Yeah, there's, there's one woman that I've come across in my research that stands out, and that's Anna Murray Douglas. So most people if they've heard her name, or you might guess by hearing it, she's the wife of Frederick Douglass. So I actually came across her because I was working on a talk about Rochester women and I had been asked by a library to put together a talk for Women's History Month about Rochester women. And I was contacted by a Rochester resident when they saw I was giving this talk. And they basically, they were like, "You need to include Anna Murray Douglas, people do not include her enough in this in the story in the narratives. And she was incredibly important." And it was really an interesting moment for me, because I didn't know anything about her at all. So I took that as an opportunity to do some research and to figure out like, what can I find out about this woman? And I'm really glad that I did it because there isn't a lot of historical evidence left about her. But from what I found, she really did have a significant impact on the people that she interacted with. And that's something that's sometimes that's forgotten. We, we look to the big names, and the people whose stories we know, like very clearly lots of details from start to finish. But there are so many individuals that were important that were significant in their own ways. So as a little background about Anna Murray Douglas, she was originally from Maryland. She was the eighth born of 12 children, so a very large family. And she was the first in her family to be born after her parents were emancipated from slavery. So this was around the year 1813 that she was born. So unfortunately, she didn't really record any of her experiences down and very little is written about her others by others in her life. But we do have recollections from her daughter Rosetta that really helps to kind of give us a glimpse into what things were like. So she's going to move to Baltimore around the age of 17. And she works as a domestic helper. And during this time she earned and she saves money. And she's doing this as a free Black woman. And this is still during the era of slavery within the United States. actually the Civil War has not happened yet. She will meet Frederick in 1838. And at that point, she's been working, she's actually already financially prepared to start a life with him, which is pretty incredible. To have to have finances is also to have power. But Frederick Douglass, he was still enslaved, he needed freedom. So she starts to support him during this process while he makes his way to New York City, and then sends for her and she when she comes to live with him, she brings nearly every belonging that they need. So she brings the linens, the dishes, the cutlery, the clothing, because she's been working, and able to save money. So they end up in Massachusetts. And they're working there, they're developing their abolitionist beliefs, they're forging friendships. Ultimately, they will relocate to Rochester, which is sort of how you know I came across her. And things were not as good there, she finds life a lot more challenging. People were less welcoming. She didn't have the same kind of friendships that she had in Massachusetts, and her daughter Rosetta records, "The atmosphere in which she was placed lacked the genial cordiality that greeted her in her Massachusetts home. There were only the few that learned to know her for she drew around herself a certain reserve after meeting her new acquaintances that forbade any very near approach to her. Prejudice and the early 1840s. And Rochester ran rampant, and mother became more distrustful."
Erica D'Eramo:That's really sad.
Maya Rook:Yeah, so even in areas where slavery had been outlawed, where you do have abolitionist movements growing, there was still so much racism and prejudice that impacted people. And to know that she had a life that felt... I mean, it just sounds happier. Massachusetts, where you're actually like, when you have friendships, you have a lot more joy in your life. And from the daughter's description. It's almost like, you know, that that dwindled and kind of shows us into her emotional world, as well.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I think it's interesting that like, and part of this probably has to do with how it's taught in schools, especially in the northeast, right? Like, I went to elementary school in Connecticut. And it was a while before I realized that, you know, Connecticut was not a bastion of antiracism during these years, and that the North was not necessarily always, you know, pro-abolition, it was not necessarily pro treating people equally. And the fact that, you know, it's kind of painted, I think, maybe also, in the northeast, it's painted as the good guys. And you lose the nuance of that. And then, really, it was only kind of in adulthood that I started to read more about what it was like for folks that did move north. And so yes, that is interesting that she, I'm not surprised she had a different experience in different states in the north, but that maybe upstate New York was not super welcoming.
Maya Rook:Yeah, it was definitely a challenging time for her and for others, as well. And, you know, I think that a lot of times, they were really driven by their commitment to what they believed in, which was that abolitionism was a necessity. And they were also very active in helping people who were enslaved to escape through the Underground Railroad. So they would house people and help them get to Canada. And that's one of the major things she did. So she in some ways, it's like, you know, yes, she was the wife of Frederick Douglass. She did things at home to help support him and you know, his ability to be an orator and to be active in the public sphere. But not only was she keeping things going at home, she was using the home to help people with the Underground Railroad. So her daughter again describes her as being very self sacrificing, and says, "Being herself one of the first agents of the Underground Railroad, she was an untiring worker along that line. To be able to accommodate in a comfortable manner with a fugitives that passed our way, Father and largest home were a suite of rooms can be made ready for those fleeing to Canada. It was no unusual occurrence for mother to be called up at all hours of the night, cold or hot as the case may, be to prepare supper for a hungry lot of fleeing humanity." So even though she's in the situation where she's not being welcomed into the Rochester circle, like she is not just devoting tons of energy to managing the home to raising children, but she's also providing for people so that they can create new lives for themselves. And she has to keep all of that work secret. You know, she's not getting any sort of like, external praise and accolades for it. And I think so often, like when we look at history, a woman's story is often seen, as, you know, a lot of times their husband's story, but there is this distinctive experience. And it's really important to look at, like, what was the role they actually played in society, in their home? What's their inner emotional world like? What were the responsibilities they carried? And then what impact they have on other people? And there's no way we can know, her simply making a meal for somebody during that journey to Canada, how that impacted them for the rest of their lives.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, wow. I mean, so much of this feels ages ago, right? Like, just so far back in history, but when we're when we really contextualize it, like, How long ago was this? It was a couple a couple generations ago, really, if we're realistic about it.
Maya Rook:Yeah, her time in Rochester, we're looking at the late 1840s, and 1850s. So yea, it's less than less than 200 years, it really isn't that long. Or even if we look at something like when women did get the right to vote, we just hit 100 years.
Erica D'Eramo:So when we think about like my grandmother's grandmother, right, like when we just start to think like just how far back the Civil War was really, this was not... There... within our lifetimes, there were parades honoring Civil War veterans, right. And so this is just not as far back as we sometimes feel like it is, as is evidenced, anytime somebody's like, oh, it's been, you know, 20 years since this movie was. Like, That's 70 show, right? When I think about like, how far back that was in comparison to like right now. Yeah, time is so much more recent than we think. So I mean, that kind of brings me to the thought of these different history months that we acknowledge and what's what do you see as being like the future when we project forward, like our current? What's the significance right now? And looking forward?
Maya Rook:Yeah. So, you know, we started off talking, I said, why it's important to have a month devoted to history that's been marginalized. But the danger of it is that it just continues to be marginalized to that month. And moving forward, it's got to be a continual progress of that history becoming mainstream. So you know, we're recording this in February, which is Black History Month. And I know that there are people, Black writers and scholars who get called one time a year, and that's for February, and get scheduled, you know, oh, we want you to participate in this. Will you speak about that? Oh, blah, you know, and that's great. This is an area of their expertise, and it's something that they can share. But why aren't they being called during other times of the year? Why aren't they being brought in as a regular part of the way that we talk about history? So I think that happens with any of these different areas, when we we have these groups have been marginalized historically, there's the celebration, the honoring, the giving of the month, but if it doesn't come with action towards something greater than I think that that's really hollow. So yeah, I mean, I think it just needs to be this continual progress. And I feel like I've seen evidence in that. And the way that textbooks are written, and I'm sure actually, well, it probably depends on where the textbooks are written. But I can say with some of the materials that I've worked with, in the way that I've seen classes structured that I do think that that is occurring more, bringing these different perspectives into the central narrative of history rather than seeing it as a sideline. But, you know, there's still a lot of work to be done.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I do actually want to mention while it's top of mind that, like, we have a little book list that we share for each month, and it does pick up different themes, whether it's themes internal to Two Piers or different Awareness Month celebration months. And there is a book that's on there for both February and March, and it's called Vanguard, and it's literally about how, let's see,"Vanguard: How Black Women Broke Barriers Won the Vote and Insisted on Equality for All." So if folks are looking for something to add to their To Be Read list, that was definitely a good, a good read that kind of helped to broaden the horizons of what you typically read about with the Susan B. Anthony's, etc. So Maya, thank you so much for coming on, and sharing not just your historical perspective, but kind of like how this fits in our current world, and and why, you know, Women's History Month is important, and how it relates to a variety of different factors that we deal with in real life right now today. So we really appreciate you coming on.
Maya Rook:Yeah, thank you, Erica. It's a pleasure to be here. And I think one thing I would want to leave people with is something I say often, which is that women's history is history. Right? Black history is history. Queer history is history. So I encourage people to look at, in your own minds even, do you divide things into these different categories in a way that's limiting? And just be honest with yourself? Because it makes sense if you do, because that's the way that our society is structured? And then to start to question then to push yourself to even more bring what's been marginalized into the center. And to see things from as many different perspectives as you can.
Erica D'Eramo:Right, like, what's missing in this in this picture? Who is missing in this picture? Yeah, absolutely. Go find that missing piece. For anyone who enjoyed listening to this bit of history and maybe wants to find your work, where can they engage with your your offerings and what you put out into the world?
Maya Rook:Yes. So for the more history centered things that I do, there's Instagram, so@illusorytime, I also have a website, illusorytime.com. And I'm a little less active on that at this point, simply because when my other work has had to take precedence, but I always do return to it. And I try to offer things as often as I can, including on March 19th, I'm going to be doing a virtual talk on the topic of the Cult of Heaven's Gate.
Erica D'Eramo:Ooh,
Maya Rook:It's going to be good. Yeah. Okay, so that will
be starting at 7:30pm. Eastern time. And the talks run for about an hour or 75 minutes.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, very cool. I mean, I've really enjoyed your other talks, which have included like, the history of Thanksgiving, and some origin stories around Christmas, and lots of really neat stuff. So I highly recommend checking out what Maya's got coming up. And for anyone who would like the links to what we just talked about, you can check out the show notes, you can check out our website, and we also include a transcript on there. Yeah, so thanks so much for joining us my really appreciate it. And thanks to the listeners for checking in, and we'll see you next episode.
