The Two Piers Podcast
The Two Piers Podcast
Critical Reframe: Discovering Opportunity In Setbacks with Erin Smith, Ed.M.
In this engaging episode, host Erica D'Eramo sits down with Erin Smith, Ed.M., a Sports Psychologist and Executive Coach, to explore the art of reframing challenges to find the opportunities that exist within setbacks. With over 15 years of experience, Erin specializes in accelerating the careers of high-performing female executives navigating male-dominated industries.
During the conversation, Erin shares valuable insights gained from her diverse professional background, including her tenure at Bridgewater Associates, the world's largest hedge fund. Drawing from her expertise in sports psychology and intimate understanding of management principles, Erin discusses strategies for overcoming setbacks, maintaining confidence, and finding opportunities for personal growth in demanding environments.
Listeners will gain actionable advice on navigating career transitions, building resilience, and prioritizing self-care. Whether you're a seasoned executive or an aspiring leader, this episode offers invaluable guidance for thriving in challenging professional landscapes.
Tune in to gain practical insights and inspiration from Erin's wealth of experience and expertise in coaching and personal development.
For more information on working with Erin, you can find her on LinkedIn, Instagram, or her website, Driven Beyond Excellence.
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host Erica D'Eramo. Today we have sports psychologist and executive coach Erin Smith joining us. So Erin accelerates the careers of high performing female executives as they navigate male dominated industries. So this is a topic very close to our hearts at Two Piers. Before starting her private coaching practice Driven Beyond Excellence, she spent six and a half years of her more than 15 professional years in the research department at Bridgewater Associates, the largest hedge fund in the world. With her master's degree in sports psychology and an intimate understanding of Ray Dalio's management principles. Erin has cultivated a portfolio of executive coaching clients across a range of industries, such as private equity tech startups, biotech, hedge funds, maritime mortgage loans, insurance, etc. Erin is also the creator of The Driven Woman Project, which she created initially as a photojournalism series highlighting women who have been successful in male dominated careers without sacrificing their core values. It's now a podcast by the same name. So again, topics very close to our hearts here at Two Piers. Erin is also an investor in underrepresented founders and entrepreneurs and a certified yoga instructor. She aims to make her mark in the world by helping others make theirs. Thank you so much for joining us, Erin. It's so great to have you on the podcast.
Erin Smith:Yes, thank you, Erica. I'm super happy to be here.
Erica D'Eramo:So we had originally kind of connected over this concept of reframing challenges. And I know that this is something that has, you know, come up in your coaching practice, it's come up in my coaching practice, and it's something that, you know, you're preparing to speak about soon, which is really exciting. So congrats on that.
Erin Smith:Yeah. Yeah, very exciting.
Erica D'Eramo:So yeah, I definitely wanted to, you know, connect with you and explore that, for our listeners, this concept of, you know, confronting challenges and and how we can reframe those in a way that's effective for us that works for us.
Erin Smith:Yeah, for sure. I like to say that, oftentimes, on the road to success, great opportunities can often masquerade as barriers or roadblocks or obstacles that seem impossible to overcome unless you know how to spot these opportunities and take them. And sometimes people miss them because they're too busy focusing on the barrier, or the challenge or how unfair it is, or something like that.
Erica D'Eramo:Right. Yeah. I mean, it probably is not a coincidence. Either, that this, you know, that your background has that financial world element to it, because I feel like, right, some of the best investments that are ever made come out of out of some of the biggest challenges that people have faced in the world, right. So. So it's interesting to, to see your, you know, how your, your journey kind of has led into your coaching experience. And that is something I would love to hear a little bit more about, like, what, what brought you to what's your origin story, or what brought you to where you are now?
Erin Smith:Yeah, that's a great question. Well, yes, I spent so as as your intro explained, I spent six and a half years at the world's largest hedge fund Bridgewater. And I went, I went to work for them with the intention of gaining a deeper understanding of the world of finance, because I don't have a finance background. I have my background is in psychology. And I graduated from UConn with a bachelor's in psychology. And then I went and got a master's degree from Boston University, in, in sports psychology, and decided that I didn't want to work primarily with athletes, I wanted to explore the world of finance, because I had worked at a private equity firm, prior to getting my masters and it was in 2008, when the crash happened. So to me, that was very exciting. And I actually, you know, funny story is that I got laid off because of it. I was in HR doing recruiting, and they no longer needed me. They were like, yep, we were cutting your job and everyone around me all my friends and you know, people who were affected also negatively by the market crash were like, "Oh, my gosh, what are you going to do? This is horrible." And I was like, "No, this is great. I'm so excited. I have this like, blank slate in front of me right now." I get to create whatever I do next, like, what do I what do I want to do? I got to sit back and think about it for a minute. So I think that was probably maybe the first major example of me, you know, seeing something that's potentially negative in bad roadblock to where I was trying to go and turning it into an opportunity, I was very excited by the white space. So I decided to go back to school because that's what I had always wanted to do. I discovered the world of sports psychology and then wanted to apply it to the world of finance. So I discovered Bridgewater because I live in southern Connecticut. And it's right in Westport. And my intention was only to be there for a couple of years. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna check it out. What's the landscape like? What are the people like? What is it what is it like to work in this environment, because ultimately, I wanted to start my own private coaching practice, that was always my goal. And, but during my time there, I enjoyed it so much, and I was thriving. For a good period of time, I stayed for, you know, six and a half years until Ray Dalio began stepping down. And from his management of the company, he was still doing investing at the time. But he started stepping down. And that changed a lot of things internally. And at the time, I was a manager. And it also, it wasn't going well, for me, I didn't really like it. I had stopped being a manager, being a manager of the... it was the particular position that I was in, because I was kind of like a middle manager, I was not like, I was an assistant manager, so I had to report to someone else. And I was also managing two of the investment teams in the research department who, by the way, they're like, first of all, they've been in the business way longer than me, they know what they're talking about. And I don't, and they're incredibly brilliant people. So they're also very impatient, highly driven, you know, perfectionist, so I kind of was wading into the deep end of, of the management, I don't know, role. And I realized very quickly, it wasn't for me. I did get to do some coaching while I was in that role, and I enjoyed that part of it. And I said to myself, Well, wait a second. Self, what are you doing here, anyway? You said you were only going to be here for a couple of years. And then you were gonna go do coaching full time? Why are you still here? So I decided, all right, I'm going to ease my way out of Bridgewater, kind of like what Ray was doing, right, it was like easing out. And I was like, Alright, I'm going to ease out too. So I'm going to take a job in a different department, which was maybe what I thought in my mind was going to be less intense, because, like I said, I'm in managing these two integral teams, they're producing the daily observations every day, going out to clients, they're working with raise teams, very, very intense, not a ton of bandwidth to do anything outside of work, like start your own coaching practice. So I moved over to a different part of the company. And I was only there for a month when they were like, we can't continue this because there was a hiring freeze. Like I said, everything was changing. They didn't allow hiring, they didn't allow transfers within the company, either. Unless you pass you know, all of these, you had to jump through a lot of hurdles to do it. And I understood, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't ideal for me, because my plan was to ease out I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna take an easier job. I'm gonna have time on the side to build my business. And then I won't have to go without a my full time, nice salary. Right. So yeah, that that kind of ripped the rug right out from underneath me and a very surprising way. And I, ultimately, I almost got into, so I had a choice at this moment, Erica, because I had just told someone that I was pregnant. Three days before, my manager told me that he was letting me go. And up until that point, he had not said anything negative about my performance. He had not said this isn't working out. In fact, he had been telling me up until that day, everything's going fine. We're going to transfer you we're going to get it through, everything's going to be great. So I thought it was very curious timing. You know, when he brought me into the office and told me, he was letting me go, and I thought this is not the way this is supposed to go. This company is very much about having transparent conversations that lead up to
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, that's the whole thing.
Erin Smith:Nothing like that. Yeah, you're not
Erica D'Eramo:There should never be a surprise.
Erin Smith:Right. So I was I was shocked. And I was sitting there shocked that I was shocked. And I thought, well, this is weird. I just told someone that I'm pregnant three days ago, why is this happening now? So I had a like, it was kind of a pivotal moment for me thinking, wow, this is really unfair and unjust. And I could probably, you know, make a stink about it if I wanted to. But then I reminded myself Wait a second, the whole point of me. Again, being here was because I wanted to start my own coaching practice and now I have everything I need to do that. Why am I why do I want to hang on and why? fight this thing that, you know, doesn't really need to be fought. And by the way, how am I going to prove right like that this, that that knowledge got exchanged and whatever. So I was just like, Alright, I'm going to leave, I'm not going to leave without a little bit of a fight, because he was trying to tell me it was my performance. And I was like, no, no, that's, I'm not going to let that happen. Like, I don't agree to that. And that's also something being in sync. And being on the same page, so to speak, at that company is very important. You don't really want to have people being out of sync, or people disagreeing and like, walking away. Sorry, I'm not on the same page as you that's just not gonna float with me. So he was kind of upset about that. And, but I was like, I'm not going to back down. Like, you can't tell me this is about my performance when I have a track record of success.
Erica D'Eramo:Also, like their their whole thing is radical transparency, right. So like, in theory, you should have a record of all of these conversations about this supposed performance issue, dating back great like
Erin Smith:nothing, there was nothing to document no verbal or written documentation. And like you said, there's there at the time, I don't believe they have this. It's the same way anymore. I don't have confirmation on that because I'm not there. But they used to have, you know, I've heard in the news that they let certain things go like the issue log or, you know, certain public documentation that shows when these kinds of things come up, feedback, negative feedback, positive feedback, issues, and what have you. They're usually pretty transparent. So yeah, up until that point, there was nothing, nothing written that said that it was leading in that direction. So I was totally shocked. But like I said, perceived barrier, right, perceived injustice, but also a great opportunity for me, because it was the push out of the nest, so to speak, that I really needed to get me to start my own business, free and clear of you know, strapped trying to straddle two different worlds, right? Yeah. So I was actually pretty grateful for the way it all went down and inspired me. But like the main, the main point here is that it inspired me to help women navigate male dominated spaces, because that's like one of the most common, ever since I've, you know, I left there and I tell this story, I connect with so many women who say, either it's bet that same thing has happened to them, or they know someone who has happened to. So it's an incredibly common scenario. So yeah, I felt alright, my coaching, it's gonna be focused, I coach both women and men, but I focus mainly on helping women navigate these typical type barriers to get them into into the leadership roles.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, absolutely. The funny thing, too, is that and I think you and I have kind of also connected on this point that, you know, so much of this work, where we go in intending to really focus our support on women operating in these male dominated industries. And that is where a lot of the support goes and a lot of the focus is, because I think we both believe that like that's better for the world, it's better for everyone. But it also positions us very interestingly, to be able to support the men as well, because, like Meryl Streep had said recently that, you know, like, women learn how to speak the language of men, like we're fluent in the language of men, and especially when you operate in these environments, you become so perceptive and in tune with what is happening, right, like I met all the multiple different levels. And so it almost equips us, ironically, really well to be able to support men working in male dominated industries as well. Which I yeah, I think both of us have ended up with quite a few male clients because of that.
Erin Smith:More clients, more male clients than female clients.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, yes.
Erin Smith:But only only by virtue of, I think the numbers, it's more of a numbers issue.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. There is a numbers piece there for sure. Yeah, so Okay, so that is fascinating origin story. So you mentioned you know, I normally ask, like, What drew you to this work, and why is it important to you? And I think there's two facets to that in in your case, like one is the Driven Women Project. But the other is coaching. And it sounds like the coaching was already sort of, you understood that at the beginning of your journey. So what, tell me a little bit more about that, like what brought you to that world?
Erin Smith:Yeah, that, that came from actually my first thought about what I wanted to do was to be a therapist. I thought I wanted to, because I had been to a therapist in high school. And I thought, "Oh, how cool is this? She gets to sit on the couch and talk to people all day. This is so fun." And also, but also she was helping me like I found so, that that was my first experience with a therapist in high school. And I was like blown away, by the way that she was able to get me to change my perspective on things. And I just thought that was so cool that I, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine, you know what she was going to help me with. And then when she showed me what she could help me with, I was like, that's amazing. I want to do that for people too. And I took a psychology class, then my senior year and just absolutely fell in love with it. It was my favorite class, I wish that they had more than just one opportunity to do that in high school.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I didn't even know that they existed in high school. Right, when I was learning well into the physics world at that point, so
Erin Smith:Yeah, you were way on the other side of, of the of the science world there. And people, you know, it was kind of one of those joke classes, right? It was like an easy A kinda class. And most people took it for that reason. So a lot of people didn't take it seriously, I was one of the people in the class who was like, "Shhh! Be quiet, I'm trying to listen!" I was reading the books and like actually trying to learn. So I knew that it was going to be something that I wanted to do. So yeah, then I went, I declared my major right away in, in college. And then so anyway, then I then I realized, right after I graduated, my first job was as a residential counselor at a psychiatric and substance abuse center in Connecticut. So that was a really, really intense introduction to the to that world. And I realized very quickly that that was not the route that I wanted to go, I was burnt out within a year. And I just felt very much like I have a lot of respect for social workers, and therapists who work with people with substance abuse issues, because it's a very serious thing. And people definitely need the support and the help, but it is something that takes a long time to really push through. And a lot of work, and a lot of times people relapse. And that was like, to me, I was I was trying so hard. I just wanted to help people so badly. And it wasn't it, you didn't see the results very quickly. So it kind of I don't know, it made me sad. And so I wanted to find a different way to help people. And when I discovered sports psychology, that's when I realized, like, Okay, this is like, tapping into true potential, like really getting people to maximize their abilities, finding those strengths and building upon them, rather than like focusing on the weaknesses and trying to, like, you know, convince people to like, to be better. People, there are people out there who want to be better people who want their super driven high performing, and they want to be, they want to see how far they can actually take things. And that's how I feel about myself. I'm constantly wanting to push myself to the next level. So that's why I was naturally drawn to sports psychology, when I discovered it.
Erica D'Eramo:And then what, what was like the, I don't want to say the penny that dropped but because maybe it was like, over time, how did the sports psychology then bridge into coaching? And what was the kind of difference there that you saw?
Erin Smith:Yeah, so when, in school, when I'm learning, you know, learning about the world of sports psychology, coaching was the most natural next step. You either stay in academia, and you become a professor and you teach it, or you become a coach, or you start, you consult with either sports teams, or actually, I actually interviewed at West Point, because I thought I wanted to help, you know, the military, but the military could really use this, right? They're high performing, they're going into battle they need, their minds need to be ready. And then when they come out, they need help. Right? Especially when their career the careers end. So career ending issues like people who have been in a sport for their entire lives, their entire identity is wrapped up in it.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah.
Erin Smith:And then usually, they age out at an early age. So they're not like retiring at 65, they're retiring, it's 30, or, you know, or something like that. That was really, really fascinating to me. So you can also you could, you know, you could do research and things like that. I was like, I want to work directly with people and I got the exposure to do that when I was at Boston University. So I found that I just enjoyed that the most like, working one on one or with teams. It just inspired me, the more I worked with them, so I thought alright, coaching is what I'm gonna do.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, that that's amazing. And I think so. Oh, man, so much interesting stuff in here. Aye. Aye. I actually one of the coaches that I trained with, she specifically works with um, her name is Megan Parker and she specifically works with college kids who are transitioning out of college sports careers but not pursuing it into professional realm because it is such an identity shift. And there's really, like, it's your whole life, right? Like you're, you're like eating and breathing. And right, just existing, every Yeah, every moment of your waking life, right. And then all of a sudden, it's something totally different. So that transition. So yeah, there are people who focus specifically on that. And I think I'm in I'm, I think I mentioned too this book Tribe that I read recently, which talks a lot about it, you know, a lot of, they're finding that a lot of the correlation with PTSD is not necessarily in the deployment itself, but it's the reintegration afterwards, and not having people around you who know your identity, who share those values, who are part of your tribe anymore. And that like lack of transition back into the real world, so fascinating that you, like I'm discovering, are learning so much about these things right now. But it sounds like that was, you know, part of your journey into the world of coaching. So,
Erin Smith:Yes, yeah, it was definitely a big fascination for me. So transitions became a big fascination because of that. And so I knew that the same thing is going on in the world of finance, right? Like people are, yes, when people want to transition out of finance, and I have a lot of clients right now, who are who are, who come to me for that specific thing, because their entire identity is wrapped up in what they've been doing, which they've been studying and practicing and growing. And like, in these intense environments, where they're working, you know, 60 to 100 hours a week, and they're, you know, they live in, like you said, they are living and breathing, this lifestyle. And when they're ready to make a change, either because they're burnt out, or because their priorities change. Maybe they have families now, and they, they're missing out on their kids or kids growing up, and they want to, you know, be a part of that. And they're like, Alright, I've made enough money, I need to now transition into something different, it's still a struggle, even though even if they're making the decision for themselves. So if you can imagine people who don't make that decision for themselves, that happens to them, you know, unexpectedly. That is also, you know, one of the one of the one of the reasons I'm passionate about coaching, you know, helping people see find those opportunities in those, you know, perceived challenges or adversity, when things happen to you unexpectedly.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I think that there is so much in there about, like having agency over it. And it's so funny that the same situation, like you, you literally just described, right, you chose that you wanted out of that scenario. But once that decision was taken away from you, and it wasn't your decision anymore, like the whole energy around, it shifts and yet, pragmatically, the outcome is the same. If you can detach it from like, all of that stuff, though, right? The ego the valley, you know, perceived...
Erin Smith:Yes,
Erica D'Eramo:...self value identity. So, Okay, so let's get into that, then, like, what are what are some of the, like, tell me a little bit about this concept of perceiving challenges? And where do you see people really struggle with it? Like, what is your to encapsulate it like, where do you see people really struggling?
Erin Smith:Yeah, I see. So when something happens to us unexpectedly, and then we'll talk about when it's your decision, because the same similar similar things can happen that make you feel like you're being held back, or it's a struggle, because it's definitely it's a change. So when it happens to unexpectedly, and all of your best laid plans, right are not, are now not going to happen the way that you plan them. It's destabilizing for people. Because you're, you're you're kind of like, I like to use the road as an analogy, Driven Beyond Excellence and Driven Women Project. So a lot of my analogies are car related. You're driving along the road, and all of a sudden, a tree falls down in front of you. Great. Now, what am I supposed to do? Right? So you're stuck there, you feel stuck. We start to develop this type of language too, right? Like when this happens, people's initial reactions often is "I am stuck. I can't get around this. What am I supposed to do? What about my plans?" Right? They go into the reverse thinking of like, well,"I was supposed to do this. And now I can't because there's a tree in front of me." So I think the biggest challenge is in how long are you going to think like that before you realize that if you just back up a little bit and turn to the right, you can probably drive around that tree. It ends somewhere. Right? Right. So how long are you going to stand there and stare directly at that tree? Instead of you know, maybe zooming out looking at the bigger picture, or remembering what your goal was in the first place? Like why are you focusing so much on this tree that's in front of you. Instead of forgetting, instead of remembering about your initial goal, like Where were you headed in the first place? Instead of, or instead of thinking about what you don't have anymore, like, Okay, what what do you have now? Like, what are you? What are you? what opportunities might exist in front of you that you're just not seeing?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. And I think that the piece around the destabilization is so interesting, because I mean, I've heard a lot of definitions of trauma, right? And we're gonna use like little T trauma here right now. But, you know, part of that is that the world isn't what you expected, it was, right? Like this, whatever that perception of safety or stability or whatever the way you thought the world worked, right? You, it like pulls that away, and you lose that piece. And so when these rugs get pulled out underneath you, it's there's that piece of like, well, what else could go wrong? Right, like the world isn't? I don't know how to operate in this world. If I couldn't predict this. I didn't see this coming. You know, what else is coming? And I'm like grieving that future that you perceived, right? There's like that loss and that grief that comes with? Yes, leaving the future you planned for and all the things that come with that, right?
Erin Smith:Absolutely. Yeah, all of those things, like you said, it is. It could be a capital T trauma, depending on how you
Erica D'Eramo:It could, yeah.
Erin Smith:How you focus on it. Right? What what are you taking away from this experience? Yeah, it's it is it is a minor trauma, because you are, your identity could be shifting, right? Because, but your plans, having those expectations and the perceived, I like how you bring up that like cert... perceived certainty, which I think certainty is an illusion anyway. But if you have some plans, and you and you think you've predicted far enough ahead to reach these goals, and you're, you're super happy, you're super driven about it, and then something comes crashing down, that that puts a halt, or a barrier between you and your goals. Yeah, you're going to feel this lack of certainty. And maybe some self doubt you're going to develop of like, if I couldn't predict this well, who am I to keep going? Right? How am I going to push forward? If this if I allowed this to happen to me? So yeah, it's about when I coach people on this, it's about getting at, it's about looking at what do you have within your control right now? Because all of those things we just mentioned, are all outside of our control?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah.
Erin Smith:Including the plans that you made. Those are outside your control. Right, unless unless they are things that are within your control, which, you know, usually when we're doing goal setting, we're trying to focus on like, what what can what, what do you need to do not what do you need to rely on others to do for you to make this goal a reality? But, yeah, I like to say to people, when they're thinking about these things, to remove the safety nets, like forget about trying to help yourself, because they're trying to protect yourself from these things from happening, instead of protecting yourself from potential danger, just realize that you have what it takes to deal with the danger if and when it appears.
Erica D'Eramo:Yes. So yes, I love that. Yeah. Like that's, we talked about confidence, right? I mean, this is how confidence is built. I, I absolutely cringe when people tell women to just like, "fake your confidence." Okay. I mean, we all have to, like fake it till we make it to some extent, but like, it's just the worst advice. Don't ever, anyone listening. Don't you ever tell a woman to fake being confident, I never want to hear it. Just remind them of all the things that, if they actually are lacking confidence, which they probably aren't even actually lacking it as much as you think. But remind them of all the things that they've accomplished before, like all of the challenges that they've faced down and all of the like, yeah, agile, nimble, blah, blah. Yeah,
Erin Smith:Yeah, you've done this before! That's my first question. My first question when someone comes to me and asks, you know, how do I deal with this? Have you dealt with this before? And I don't mean, this exact scenario.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah.
Erin Smith:Have you dealt with, when's the last time you experienced a setback of this magnitude? I will go back into memory and they'll tell me about a time and I'm like, how did you deal with it then? And then they'll give me the answer. And then I'll just say it back to them. You know, usually it's like, oh, well, you know, I I had a really awesome friend who helped me through it. Where's that friend now? Oh, I haven't talked to her yet. Well, why haven't you talked to her? Or, you know, like, build that support network number one. Number two. Did you think about you know, I probably you know, I went back to the drawing board and I figured out a different path. Then Then I discovered this opportunity over here. I'm like, Oh, amazing. Well, have you stepped back and thought about? No, I haven't done that yet. Okay, let's do that, right. And then they're basically giving me the answer of what works for them to get through yet another unexpected, like, this messed up my plans kind of situation. And then that builds back your confidence by doing that, like, what you what you're saying it probably never went away in the first place. It just clouded. Yeah, it was hard to remember. It's just a matter of reminding you that it's there. This
Erica D'Eramo:is why whenever whenever clients leave a conversation, they're like, Oh, you give such good advice. And I'm like, I literally didn't give you a single piece of advice. Exactly. In this entire conversation. Not I mean, I'm capable of giving advice. I just don't think it's usually very effective. And so, yes, we are as coaches, right. We're like uncovering what you already know, and helping you to see putting the mirror up in front of you. But that that piece around, like when that tree initially falls across the road. I mean, that piece that you mentioned was like, how long are we going to sit here I think is an interesting one, because there is a moment where you do sort of have to sit there and be like, Whoa, Okay, I'm Okay. Right. Like my seat belt engaged. We're good. We're safe. Like, yeah, get your bearings. And that dwelling of, sort of, I call it like, the being right versus being effective, although, this is a little little to the side of that. But like, Yes, something bad happened, right? Like that acknowledgment of it. So we're not trying to say like, nothing bad happened to you or that it was fair, or it was Okay. Right. Like in your situation. It wasn't fair or Okay. Like, none of that is fair. Okay. Noted. Got it. Yes, you were affirmed. Right. And now. And
Erin Smith:now what? Yes, I know. That's right. agnostic. Selfish.
Erica D'Eramo:Like, right. What's best for you right now?
Erin Smith:Exactly. Exactly. And yeah. 100%, you have to acknowledge that something has happened. That sucks. It's wrong. It's unfair. It's unjust. It's not what you planned. It's not what you wanted. You didn't ask for it. The world? You know, that's just life, right? Let's acknowledge it. Okay, this is terrible. I don't want this to happen in the future. So yes, now you can maybe start by taking a lesson from from this, alright, what can I learn from this situation so that maybe I can prevent it in the future? Sometimes you can't write sometimes, right? Who knows how that tree fell. Like, you know, if you weren't in a storm, maybe you could not have predicted maybe next time, if you weren't a storm, maybe next time, don't go on a storm. But if you're just driving along, and this tree just comes out of nowhere. I mean, that might be difficult to predict, but you want to assess right, assess the damage, assess what you have experienced, could you potentially prevent it again, in the future? Is there anything here that will give you information on how to do that? But yeah, at some point, you have to, and you can acknowledge the feelings you have about it, too, because we're human. Yes, have emotions. So you cannot go burying them and saying, Well, I'll just keep pushing forward. No, you want to, you want to acknowledge how it made you feel and process those emotions so that they don't affect the next move that you make. Yeah, because I don't want to make a move. I don't want to make a move based on, you know, my fear or resentment or anger, right, I want to make a decision based on inspiration, and effectiveness and you know, success.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, yeah, this concept of, you know, feelings as data is has been so valuable for me, because that shift, and it brings in that curiosity that you talked about, of like, you know, what can we learn here? Because, like you said, we need to acknowledge our feelings and then understand, what are they telling us, right? And how do we want to take that information and incorporate it into the next decision, but in an intentional way, intentionally
Erin Smith:and deliberately not, you know, subconsciously, because you quote unquote, buried those emotions in order to push
Erica D'Eramo:forward. Yes, yeah. So, Okay, one more? Well, as we're talking through this, I think it's important for us to like broach the topic of toxic positivity, right? Because some people are hearing like, Oh, it's a challenge. And let's find the silver lining. Like, let's differentiate. So what's the difference in your mind between, you know, this reframing of challenges, seeing challenges as opportunities versus the toxic positivity? Because especially coming out of corporate, like, how many times was it like, you know, something really bad what happened and like, we're not allowed to call it a challenge. We have to call it an opportunity. This is an opportunity for me to work in 80 hours a week this week. Great.
Erin Smith:Thanks, guys. There's some toxicity in there for sure.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, so what do you see the difference?
Erin Smith:Yeah, toxic positivity, also known as Pollyanna thinking, right? Like if you, which is kind of like, let's ignore the negative, and only focus on the positive as if that's all that exists, right? Let's just pretend that this catastrophe is just a positive thing only. That's where I think the difference is because I think in every situation, every situation, there is inherently good and bad properties. And it's just a matter of which one you choose to focus on. That depends how you perceive it, and how you approach it. And so if you say, Well, I'm only going to focus on the good, and I'm gonna completely ignore the bad. I think that's toxic. The opposite is also true, I'm going to pretend there's no good because it serves me to just complain or focus only on the bad, right? Meanwhile, both exist. So if you can acknowledge that both exists, and you can weigh them almost equally, in your mind, like, acknowledge that there is bad and acknowledge that there is good and then you can I think you can make a much a much more informed decision. That take both into consideration. Yeah,
Erica D'Eramo:I think too, as I'm hearing today. Yeah. As I'm hearing you talk through it, too, I think some of this toxic positivity as well comes through in people being uncomfortable with other people's discomfort, right. And so this, you know, when something bad happens to somebody else, and people initially come through, and it's like, well, at least blah, blah, blah, right? Fill in the blank, and another like, please don't ever do that folks who are listening, don't ever come to somebody's hurt and pain and grief and be like, well, at least Yeah, you know, whatever you have to say that comes after those words, it's doesn't matter. At least somebody else has it worse, at least you didn't blah, blah, blah, at least you'll have an opportunity to do this, you know, XY and Z. The important part is not that you minimize the feelings that people are having, like you said, like those are valid and important feelings. It's, it's the link piece around. What are your options here? What What can you take out of this? Not? You know, one is not there to supplement or to minimize the other, because I think it's so often is used in time, and in times of disparity with like, inequality, right? Like, with social barriers, all these pieces, you know, like racism, sexism, we minimize people's experiences by saying like, Well, Okay, sure you got fired because of racism, but like, you'll land on your feet, you'll find something even better, right? And that can be very, like diminishing and minimizing to people. So yeah, that's, I think now that I'm like hearing you talk through, I think that's where some of this discomfort with like, or the ick factor of toxic positivity comes, right. So like, as I put that out there, what are your some of your thoughts? Yeah, I
Erin Smith:agree with you. And it is, it is a balancing act, which is what I'm trying to acknowledge here. Or point out that like, there's good and bad and so let's not, like, put so much weight on one or the other. Let's acknowledge that both exist. And to your point, especially when emotions are involved. And if you aren't trying to, if you have positive intentions or trying to help someone, it's worth noting that during that whole, you know, well, at least you know, did it is going to diminish their actual experience, which is important because you still, you don't want to say oh gosh, well, I'm having these negative feelings, I want to just get rid of them, or ignore them or put them aside. You want to acknowledge them, because like you said, their data points, and they can actually inform what you might do next. It doesn't have to be the only data point though, right? Just yeah. The positive things are not the only data point. The negative things are also not the only data point. But yeah, if you if you're when you're dealing with humans and emotion, you have to absolutely acknowledge their experience and validate it because it's, it's actually there. It's happening. It's and it's reality for them. Yeah,
Erica D'Eramo:like it's Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's the when I bring up the piece around like racism, for example, I think when I encounter clients who are dealing with that in the workplace, right, or sexism, and it's like, right, well, that's probably not within your control, right? You're probably not going to actually undo the patriarchy in your company. Right. So now what?
Erin Smith:Yeah, exactly. You're that you're not going to change If you're a boss, I had a friend once, who was very distraught over a boss, who was who she thought was being sexist and making decisions based on sexism and like favoring the male, her male counterparts. And you know, and, you know, I said to her, I was like, even if that is true, what do you think you're going to do? Or what do you think you should do about it? And her answer was, I want to approach him about it. I want to tell him, he's doing it and I want to, you know, I want and, you know, she kept going on, and I let her go on. And I was like, so you want to fix him? And I was like, it sounds like you want to fix him? And she was like, Well, yeah, shouldn't I try to like help change his mind. And I'm like, you could try to change his mind. But that is an incredibly difficult task that you are trying to take on, and you could end up getting even more frustrated, and maybe even treated worse. If you if you do that, right, it would be a noble thing that you would be trying to do and your intentions would be really good. But I don't know if that's gonna work for you. Is that what you want? To do? Like, is that is that like, cuz she was working in like, I think it was like a marketing job or something like that. I was like, aren't you passionate about marketing? And like, getting to the next level and pushing yourself and all that she's like, Yeah, and I was like, Is this going to serve you in that? She's like, probably,
Erica D'Eramo:like, what's the goal?
Erin Smith:What's the goal with you? Right?
Erica D'Eramo:What's the goal here? And that's where I think sometimes people aren't honest about what the real goal honest with themselves about what the real goal is. Because in that, in some of these situations, like, we might say, the real goal is to get further but really, the real goal might be to feel validated or to reestablish agency, you know, self agency or to feel vindicated, or whatever that feeling is, if we're honest with that with ourselves about that, it's like an Are you willing to put your job on the line for that? Exactly. And so, are you proud? Like, what's the likelihood you will get that feeling at the end of this? Yeah. You know,
Erin Smith:probably not. I mean, I thought about I played the whole, you know, the whole future forward if I had taken the path. And this is another another thing that I do too, is when you when you are encountered by that metaphorical tree across the road, consider what your what paths you have now in front of you, right, that path is gone. So what other paths exist? And when I was doing that, when I left Bridgewater, I imagined, what would happen if I did bring a lawsuit? How would that go? Like, and I just saw a whole bunch of like, stress and disappointment and like tears, like being scared of like, and while I totally understand if someone did want to take that route, they were like, No, I need to have justice brought. Absolutely, then make sure Yeah, make sure you're doing that, like with intention, and you're going to about to take those things on, I did not want to take those things on. I wanted. Yeah, I wanted the next two years from that point, I wanted to have my coaching practice, up and running, I did not want to be buried in a lawsuit and trying to, you know, figure my way through that I wanted to learn how to run a business. That was what I really wanted to do. So I decided, like, it wasn't worth it. For me to go down that path. Yeah, I you know,
Erica D'Eramo:I think for people who have the, you know, if you are in a place where you have the privilege, and you have the security and the resources to be able to take some of those risks, and like, you know, have those conversations and put the, put it on the line like that. I think that's great. And people should do it. I just think so often, we put the onus on individuals to like change systems. And we we pile on all this guilt when they decide not to do that, or, you know, and fundamentally, we're talking about corporations here, right? So if you are trying to make a corporation better, by say, not being sexist, because that will make it better, that will make it perform better if it's not sexist. Great. You help the shareholders and their bottom line, but how are you doing? Yeah,
Erin Smith:what did it say? Okay, what what toll that it takes on you and your career?
Erica D'Eramo:And your career? Yeah, and your effectiveness elsewhere, too, you know, so, that intentionality I think, is so important. And so, you know, when, when we see these, you know, unexpected challenges, although we did talk about what, uh, what happens when it's expected. So, you mentioned that earlier, what's the difference that you see, like, what are the similarities and the differences when the challenge is unexpected versus when the challenge is expected?
Erin Smith:I think the I think they're almost exactly the same except for the shock factor. Because I think even even if you decide I'm going to pivot and take this new course, course of action or path forward, you still have to grieve the past, right? What or whatever you thought you might be doing. Up until that point, you have to let go of what you're currently doing in order to, to, you know, turn into something new, which as you saw in my example, I didn't, I couldn't do it. I was like, I'm gonna ease out of my job and then start my I couldn't just like some people, some people have trouble doing that, right, like just cutting the cord and just quickly pivoting to something else. And then just starting it. No, I had to, you know, I had been at this company for so long, and I really enjoyed what I was doing. It was hard to make that decision, even though it was always my intention. So yeah, I think you're still going through those identity shifting changes, mourning the past. Yeah. Trying to figure out like working with the whitespace of like, well, what am I going to actually do now? How am I going to do that? Maybe some fear of, you know, trying something new. And maybe some imposter syndrome?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I, as you talk through, like, I just picture that piece around, like, when you say cutting the cord, I always picture kind of having one foot on a dock. And maybe this is because literally the name of our company is two piers, right. So having one foot on like the pier on the dock, and one foot on the boat, right, but the boats not tied off, and the boat is starting to light away. And like, You got to decide real brain otherwise, you end up in the water. Where is your center of gravity going to be? Is it on the pier? Or is it on the boat? Or on the dock?
Erin Smith:Yeah, because it's so if you want to move forward, you have to be all in. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo:So the piece around, I'm kind of circling back here the piece around, like, how long are we going to dwell or this narrative around things being done to us? You know, like, it being unfair. There's something so interesting in there, and I think you alluded to it, but the concept of kind of, like, how has that thinking worked for you in the past? Right? Because I feel like when people create these patterns, it's chances are that's not an atypical way for somebody to react to challenge or unexpected challenge, if that's how they're reacting now, right? Like, we tend to develop these patterns and habits over time. And so often, like it's, it has served people in the past in some way if they keep returning to that behavior, right. So tell me a little bit about that. Like, how do you think this serves people? Like why did they return to that way of thinking?
Erin Smith:Yeah, if you you are, you're talking about the thinking of, you know, why is this happening? To me? Yeah,
Erica D'Eramo:like getting stuck in the car in front of the tree, right. Like instead of pulling it, putting it in reverse?
Erin Smith:Right, instead of taking, yeah, taking, backing up and really looking at it? Well, I think I think it's, you know, I like to ask the question, what are you gaining from this? What are you? How is this helping you in a way because it is in some in some way, otherwise, you wouldn't be doing it even though it seems like it's exactly holding you back. And it's frustrating. And it seems like a negative emotion that you're experiencing, it's actually serving you in some way. And so if you really stare at it, and you're honest with yourself, and you look underneath it, it is giving you permission to stay where you are instead of moving forward. So if you can't think so let's say you're like, What am I you're asking your brain? What do I do now and you're coming up blank, the next easiest thing to ask yourself is why is this happening to me? Because then you don't have to answer the first question. Right? Right. If you're like, I don't know what to do next. And then you, you don't like that feeling? Right? You don't like the feeling of uncertainty, we are searching. And plus you just experienced something that is, like we said, destabilizing and causing uncertainty in your life. So you're going to almost naturally reach for certainty. And we can find certainty in the fact that I have no control over this situation. I can't do anything. It's happening to me. And I can't stop it. So here I am. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo:There's also I think, to like that, that seeking that question of why is this happening to me? Because sometimes I feel like clients will also find, and we, you know, I do it, too. We'll try to find the connection so that we can stop it from happening in the future. You know, like, Okay, Penn State lost their game two weeks ago. And you know what, I wasn't wearing my lucky shirt. So I'm never going to do that again. Right? Yeah, we'll just like try to find some little piece that tells us that we have some control in the matter so that we can protect ourselves rather than sometimes like knowledge. We don't have control and it's Okay. Right? He said, Yes, thanks
Erin Smith:for most things we cannot, we cannot control. Right? But right we can, we can control our own thoughts. And we can control the questions that we ask ourselves. So I got this from Tony Robbins, Tony Robbins says, instead of asking, Why is this happening to me? Ask yourself, why is this happening for me? And if you let that sink in for a second, that little shift, that one little word, can change the way that you're looking at it. Go, oh, why is this happening for me? Like, what am I? What can I gain from all of this? What can I learn? How can I grow? Like you start asking yourself better questions, then you'll start getting better answers. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo:Which kind of brings us back to the financial industry again, because so often when there's instability, right, like the really savvy folks are looking for. Yeah. Which, you know, maybe sometimes to the detriment of society, as we saw in like, you know, The Big Short or whatever, but, you know, what is the what is the opportunity in the turmoil? Because whenever there's turmoil, there is opportunity. And I guess the better way of looking at the eyes, you know, the Mr. Rogers, right, like, where are the helpers? There's always something to find that you can, you can find those little inroads to either impact or to new opportunities, or to new frameworks or new ways of thinking. So yeah, but yeah, right. Like the best investors, we're never the ones that are the ones that stand out. We're never the ones that just played it safe the whole time. It's almost always I thought there was some big disruption. And they ran, right. Yeah.
Erin Smith:They dug in. And they tried to figure they tried to find the opportunity in the obstacle or the barrier or the perceived negative event.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, yeah. I, you know, a lot of there are a lot of layoffs going on in the world right now. So there are a lot of people, I think, that are faced with these challenges. There are people who, you know, from the tech layoffs that happened almost a year ago, are still, you know, trying to find work. And I think the reality is pretty stark for a lot of people. I spoke with somebody recently whose company was going through a bunch of layoffs, and they were like, how do people deal with unexpected change? And I was like, Well, you know, what are your real concerns here? What are you actually concerned about? And he was like, Well, I gotta be honest, actually, every time there's big layoffs, I've either like, I've landed on my feet somewhere. So I just kind of, I'm pretty excited. Like, I think either, I'm gonna end up in a great role with this company, or I'll end up in a great role with another company. And I was like, well, that's great. You're not really in the same mindset, as many people who are going through, right. But it really highlighted for me this thinking of, yeah, some people get it. And they they're already wired that way.
Erin Smith:Yeah, I don't, I don't know how, because I've definitely experienced the, you know, why is this happening to me, and like wallowing and kind of like, just angry at the world, I definitely have experienced that I am not impervious to it, I definitely have gotten better at handling it over time. But I feel like, you know, if you're wired that way, and you've been rewarded for that kind of thinking for a long period of time, it's going to be really hard for you to get out of that. Because I know some people who you can tell them, you can show them the way to change their thinking. And they might do it for a minute or two, but it's not comfortable for them because they're not used to it. So they almost instinctually go back to that, like, woe is me, this is so hard. I deserve, you know, XYZ, you know, exemptions and this and that because of what I'm what I have to face. And sometimes, I don't know, depends on it's really, it's really hard. It's really hard for me when I see things like that going on, I don't know about you, but like when you see that you're like, if you like you are suffering right now, and you don't have to be suffering. You shift your thinking a little bit like yes, there are bad things in the world and things suck but like it's not all bad. So, you know, let's like, don't you want to come over to the side and like see it for for what it really is. And then you know, a lot of people just reject that kind of thinking. So it's very, I don't know, it makes me sad.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, I mean, it's what you there's that big piece that you mentioned though, right? Is that that has kept them safe in some way rewarded them right. And that is a very, you have to just like the confidence right? You don't build confidence in a vacuum you can only You build it through hardship, and then succeeding and hardship and then succeeding. Yeah, that's that's what we talked about with resilience, right. And sometimes the hardship doesn't have resilient outcomes. Sometimes the hardship has negative outcomes and people in order I think in order to like rewire, you have to have some of those wins. And that takes risks like it takes taking risk. And that's Yeah,
Erin Smith:I think you have to prioritize growth. Yeah, growth versus a fixed mindset. Like if you have a growth mindset, and you prioritize growth over let's say, like, feeling important. Like if someone is, you know, if you're going through something difficult, sometimes you might feel more important by like whining and complaining about it, because people are paying attention to you while you're doing it. They're looking at you and going, Oh, you poor thing. Like, let me help you did it. And that feels better than let me just let me figure out where the growth is in this, like, what can I learn from this? And how can I push forward? Because you're prioritizing something other than growth? Yeah, about that?
Erica D'Eramo:Well, yeah, definitely. I mean, that. And when we look at that, right, it's, we talked about the growth mindset, but that fixed mindset, what is that really about? And it's that your value is inherent, that belief that your value is already determined that when you take a risk and it fails, or something fail by fail, it didn't go the way you planned, that that is revealing your true value, which is less than what you thought it was, right? That way. Right? Cognitive dissonance there that we get. i That's why we protect ourselves from risks, right? Because we don't want to reveal that our true value is less than because it's inherent, it won't ever change. Right? Versus the growth, which you're saying. My inherent is, my inherent value doesn't exist. It is based off of failing, trying learning. Yeah. Growing. Yeah. So I think that that is a very tough shift, you have to like learn to value the growing pains. Right. Exactly. Okay, so I think we've, we've covered like a lot of ground and in what people can be thinking about in terms of, you know, confronting an either unexpected challenges, or ones that we chose ourselves. What would you say some key takeaways are for those who are listening? who are maybe right now, you know, in the face of unexpected challenges, and are maybe feeling a bit stuck? Yeah,
Erin Smith:I would say that you should focus on what you can control. Instead of there's so much out there that we cannot control. But I would take a look inside yourself. Because usually what we can control is what's inside us, right? How we think, how we feel, and the actions, the decisions that we make, those are within our control, we cannot control what someone thinks of us, what someone is going to do to us, you know, whether that's firing you or hiring you, or giving you a pay raise, or you know, giving it to someone else instead, we can't control that. So I would say, if you whatever challenges you're facing right now, stop and make a list of like, what are the things you can control versus the things you can't control and give most of your energy to the ones you can?
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, like, what are your options here? Right? Like that's there are some options somewhere, right?
Erin Smith:And don't abandon yourself because you're abandoned, you're if you're focusing all of your attention on what is outside of your control, you're abandoning yourself in that way. You're, you're forgetting about who's going to take care of you. Right, who's going to take care of what, what matters to you, if you're focusing on well, how do I change that person's mind? Or how do I get what I want? By trying to you know, control or influence the people around me? Yeah, yeah, guys, and self abandonment. Right,
Erica D'Eramo:like shifting that focus internally versus externally. And I think that even extends into what we value. Right? Like really looking at like, what is in what's actually important here to you, and if it's sitting with someone else's opinion, I love that you mentioned that right? Like what somebody else thinks of you. Yeah, we're giving that person like so much control over our well being Yeah. And I joke right like somebody you probably wouldn't even trust to like pet sit for you. Don't give them control over you're waiting.
Erin Smith:Yeah. You're what you think of yourself is is really all that matters. And so I like to I like to say when I'm in these situations, who do I want to be at the end of this? Yeah, what like once once I get past this tree, this going back to this metaphor, Merkel tree on the road, who do I want to be because any major event in your life is going is an opportunity for you to shift who you are. So you can do that unconsciously and become, you know, someone you didn't plan to be or even think about, which could be, you know, super negative, or someone who's defeated or get or gave up or you know, decided to do something else. Or you could be you know, your own superhero, you could save the day for yourself and change things around. And whatever it is, just ask yourself, you know, am I going to be proud of who I am? What I when I'm done with this? What do I have to do? Who do I be to be proud of myself? Once? This is? Yeah,
Erica D'Eramo:yeah, yeah. I love that framing that, like all of these hardships or challenges shape us in some way. And so having some forward thought about like, how do you want this to shape you? Yeah. And is it with? Yeah, like, how do you harness or write fear? Or is it with that sense of resilience? So for folks who want to know more, who want to follow your podcast, who maybe want to work with you, tell us a little bit about that, like, Who do you work with? I mean, you mentioned a little bit, but like, who would be a good candidate to work with and where can they find you?
Erin Smith:Yeah, that's a great question. Well, I love working, as I said, with women in male dominated spaces, who want to be in leadership roles, I am talking to the women who are driven to make the changes that we've, you and I have spoken about, right? There's these systemic barriers, Okay. And they're very difficult to make change, when you're trying to fight them as an individual, unless you are in a leadership position, where you have that authority, and you can make those changes. So I really, really, it's my mission to really see women push through those barriers that they feel like are it's very difficult for them to get to the top, yes, but like, I want to help women get there. So if you are on a leadership track, and you want to stay the course, come see me. And for men, too, by the way, men have impostor syndrome. I've worked with a lot of men who are exceptional, exceptional at what they do, but they've hit some some kind of roadblock that is giving them impostor syndrome or causing them to check their competence. And they need to rebuild it and get to the next level. So guys, I'm here for you, too. But you can find me on Instagram at the driven women project or linked in Aaron Smith EDM, or my website, www dot driven beyond excellence.com.
Erica D'Eramo:Great, and those will all be in the show notes. Yay. And, you know, I just want to like, I want to talk about this a little bit as we wrap up, that what Aaron and I do is actually quite similar, right? We we both want to work with these trailblazers and changemakers we want to work with individuals in order to create the systemic change tackle these systemic barriers through leaders, right. And so there's a lot of, there's a lot of advice out there that would say, you know, why would you have somebody on the podcast who's like, essentially a direct competitor? And I, I want to, like address that directly, right? Because so often we hear this narrative that women don't support other women and I call BS. And I think like, you and I talked about this, that there is no need for a scarcity mindset here. There are plenty of people out there who need support. And if anyone listening was like, Oh, I was maybe gonna work with Erica, but I love what Aaron has to say. And I want to work with Aaron instead. You should do that. Yeah, that's fine. Right? Like we are coaching is so specific. And so like chemistry based that you know, there's no need for us to be to see each other as competitors like the rising tide. Yeah. What is it like rising tide lifts all boats?
Erin Smith:Yes. Yeah, you know, you're spot on that when it comes to coaching. It's all about one of the one of the aspects that makes a successful coaching engagement is when you have chemistry, good chemistry, or a good click with the coach, and there's enough of our audience out there, we cannot possibly you and I service every single person in our in our target audience. So absolutely. I want people to hear I want to amplify your voice and amplify my voice so that anyone who is out there who resonates with our individual voices will have a better chance of hearing it and yes, if someone clicks with you better I want them to go work with you because I would be forcing a square peg in a round hole. And there's no doubt in that like, No, I tell every client that that I'm that I'm meeting with at the outset. Are you interviewing other coaches? And if they say no, I tell them, you should really go do that because you need to compare and and make sure that you're you are getting exactly what is going to work for you. So I would want 100%
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There you go see women supporting women. Really possible. See it in real life? Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Aaron, for being on the podcast. I really appreciate it. It's such a timely topic. And I think it just, there's no one in this world right now who's not facing unexpected challenges or who hasn't. And being able to navigate those effectively in a way where they come out better and stronger is just so important. So I'm really glad that you came on to talk about it. And so excited for your TEDx appearance to yeah, sorry,
Erin Smith:I forgot about that. I'm doing a TEDx appearance and starting my own podcast.
Erica D'Eramo:This, you know, yeah. Yeah, thank you.
Erin Smith:Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this conversation, Erica.
Erica D'Eramo:Yeah. And for anyone who wants to find the show notes and the transcript, you can find it at two piers consulting.com. And you can find us on pretty much all of the podcast streaming platforms. So look forward to seeing you next episode.
